Forty-five days from now, we’re told, President Trump will shut down TikTok and WeChat.
TikTok, maybe, but WeChat? Impossible.
Everything Donald Trump understands about the Internet could fit in a thimble. He’s a reckless leader who isn’t bothered by things like, well, facts, so it shouldn’t be surprising that he expects to command WeChat into oblivion. But what will happen to his already limited Internet authority when that doesn’t work?
What Internet authority?
Trump has a chance of taking down TikTok, the short form video sharing site, because that service is dependent on advertising. He can force the app out of U.S. app stores (though not out of foreign ones) and he can cut off the flow of ad dollars… at least those dollars that flow through American pockets. But there are workarounds, I’m sure, even for TikTok and 45 days is a lot of time to come up with them. So maybe the service will be sold to Microsoft or maybe not. In either case I’m sure TikTok will survive in some form.
WeChat, on the other hand, will thrive.
WeChat, if you haven’t used it, is the mobile operating system for China. It’s an app platform in its own right that is used for communication, entertainment, and commerce. Imagine Facebook, LinkedIn, PayPal, Venmo, Skype, Uber, Gmail and eBay all in a single application. That’s WeChat. It’s even a third-party application platform, so while US banks operate on the Internet, Chinese banks operate on WeChat. Shutting WeChat down in the U.S. would be a huge blow to WeChat’s parent company, TenCent, and a huge blow to the Chinese diaspora. Except it won’t work.
To defeat President Trump, all WeChat users need is a Virtual Private Network and any WeChat users already in the U.S. already have a VPN to defeat the much more formidable Great Firewall of China. Whatever Trump thinks he can do is puny in comparison.
Back in 1998 I gave a speech to the North American Association of State and Provincial Lotteries at their annual meeting, held that year in Minneapolis. They gave me a hand-carved wooden duck decoy that’s on my bookshelf today. My topic back then was this thing called the Internet and what it would mean to state lotteries and legalized gambling in general. I told them it would rock their world. And it has.
What amazed me in 1998 was that the lottery folks weren’t Las Vegas-type gambling executives but more like the people down at the DMV — pleasant and chubby civil servants there to collect the money, thanks. They were secure in their local gambling monopolies and had no idea that some outfit in the Channel Islands could steal their customers with a game of online poker.
The state troopers would handle that problem, they thought, dimly. I could not possible be correct about Internet gambling.
I suggested fighting fire with fire — that the states promote their lotteries internationally, expanding their territories and making even more money. They looked at me like I had two heads.
Twenty-two years later along comes President Trump, sounding precisely like those NASPL people. He has no idea what he is talking about. And if he thinks he can bully TikTok into selling itself to Microsoft, that will only happen if that’s what TikTok wants to do… and the price is right.
Even then I expect Microsoft will get more (or less) than it is expecting.
First comment
https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/banning-tiktok-are-we-reproducing
Once we were biggest cheerleaders of free worldwide economy for all and nowadays 180 degree turn – build walls everywhere – we don’t need anyone. I do not think it can work but it will be slogan as long as Trump is in the Oval Office. Does not matter that he imports everything he needs from abroad (laborers for his private golf clubs and supplies for his hotels) but uneducated white people buy it and it works for him.
Racist much?
The two biggest common factors among Trump supporters, by a long way, are being white and not having a college degree.
https://www.thoughtco.com/meet-the-people-behind-donald-trumps-popularity-4068073
I’m SO unbelievably grateful that we are FINALLY one step closder to being FINISHED with that pompous, arrogant, beligerant, narcissistic, pious embarassment to our country – I hope he WILL end up having to be evicted from te whitehouse as a tresspasser – and dragged kicking and screaming by the same secret service officers he used to boss around 🙂 and then he can fade back into obscurity and be his awful little self without it affecting every American – or more likely go to prison soon like everyone else who was close to him circa 2016-18
Nevertheless, there are things he CAN do, or cause to be done; He can ban the app on any government phone, and on any company phone used by a government contractor. He can use government agencies to ensure the app cannot be installed or used on any phone owned or used by employees of any company regulated by those agencies (SEC, Fed, etc.). Many companies already do this. The FCC can force the U.S. Carriers to disable the app on any phone on their network, and prevent it from being installed.
Of course, there are always different ways to get access to the app, but traffic from the U.S. will decline significantly. Not absolutely, because we have way too many active and passive Chinese intelligence assets in our country. But this will also be a learning experience for our cybersecurity forces.
Chinese people will do whatever it takes to continue using WeChat. They will ditch iPhones and US sourced Android phones, enable VPNs and Cringely points out, even use a second phone for it if their employment means their work phone can’t have it installed. None of these workarounds are particularly onerous and WeChat is worth it for them. If this happens, Apple for one will be out of the Chinese ethnic minority market for the Christmas season. Source, my wife is Chinese.
“WeChat, if you haven’t used it, is the mobile operating system for China.”
Please, Bob, fix this wording. I know you know what an “operating system” is. WeChat is an application, a communication platform, a communication service. But definitely is not an operating system.
metaphor: The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it is not, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described.
I agree. It is meant as “the system – financial and social – that China operates on”. It is the backbone of their economy. I lived in China for 8 years and that’s all I used to buy stuff, book airline and train tickets and much more. Alipay (from Alibaba) is a strong competitor, but Wechat is much stronger as an App platform.
Based on Bob’s description, it sounds like a Chinese browser.
But here is a more accurate description: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WeChat “WeChat is a Chinese multi-purpose messaging, social media and mobile payment app developed by Tencent. First released in 2011, it became the world’s largest standalone mobile app in 2018, with over 1 billion monthly active users. WeChat has been described as China’s “app for everything” and a “super app” because of its wide range of functions.”
Or you could just call it an “operating system” and save some keystrokes while assuming the readers are intelligent and educated enough to understand the concept of the “metaphore”.
I think calling it a OS confuses the issue for non-techies, and makes techies angry, since it clearly is not an OS, and must be run by the OS on the phone. I suppose if all Chinese phones’ firmware turned over the control of the phone to Wechat like the way the iPhone’s firmware turns over control to iOS, then we could call it an OS. I’d love to hear the opinion of a Chinese techie who understands our understanding of an OS, as well as how Wechat is the same or different.
I think not calling it an operating system would require too many caveats to be worth the exercise.
Applications run on WeChat and you can’t effectively work without WeChat. That feels like an operating system to me.
Saying WeChat’s not an operating system is almost like saying PalmOS is not an operating system because it’s built on the Kadak AMX operating system.
Applications also run in a browser, sometimes called extensions, sometimes just websites made to look like apps, called “web apps”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application “Examples of commonly-used, web applications, include: web-mail, online retail sales, online banking, and online auctions. The general distinction between a dynamic web page of any kind and a ‘web application’ is unclear. Web sites most likely to be referred to as ‘web applications’ are those which have similar functionality to a desktop software application, or to a mobile app. HTML5 introduced explicit language support for making applications that are loaded as web pages, but can store data locally and continue to function while offline.”
The closer to the election in the US, the stranger the stunts, it seems.
But I must ask, is that really Trump in your picture?
People don’t bother to change an application’s default settings, why would they use VPNs?
When they Google “access wechat”.
Classic Cringely. Big eyecatching headline, lots of handwaving, shoehorning in namedrops and “I thought of it first” with conclusions which don’t actually match reality.
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Do I care about Trump? Not particularly. Why headline this fat moron existing on borrowed time?
Vegas casinos worry about online gambling? Since when? Rock the world? It’s hardly noticed.
No I don’t care about TikTok or WeChat. Nor Whatsapp or similar junk.
VPNs aren’t much use in real life for most people and are still very niche as the big drop off in the UK off torrent use has proven.
I couldn’t much care about China either.
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It’s difficult to explain how much as an escort reading this how far Cringely has missed the mark on everything. Now the internet did change things for escort work and by quite a lot.
Hey trashtalk, just because you’re a Brit and only interested in your own country, don’t assume that other people aren’t interested in foreign countries. I don’t live in either America or China, but both countries are important to the world and I don’t think being deliberately ignorant of them improves my global perspective. Why come on here to advertise that you don’t care about anything? If you’re so apathetic to foreign politics, foreign countries, and Internet technologies, then why bother posting on an article about them?
Bob, your TDS is in the final stage. You may suffer from hallucinations.
Such as the idea that Trump is an idiot who is futilely trying to shut down some companies. No, he isn’t, And the Bezos Post didn’t even bother faking that news. Too fake for them. Probably because their collective TDS is not as advanced as yours. Get help.
The EO refers to “any transaction that is related to WeChat by any person, or with respect to any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, with Tencent Holdings Ltd, or any subsidiaries of that entity, as identified by the Secretary of Commerce”.
There are differing views on the deal Obama made with Iran. But my understanding is that by the time a deal was made, the sanctions were hurting quite badly.
Don’t think this EO is where it ends. All without Trump making any effort whatsoever to shut down any companies at all, China, as the exporter, can only lose to a determined opponent, no matter how good a fight they put up, or product they offer.
If Trump gives the same kind of attention to the platform/publisher games Facebook et al play and bring them to heel, that would provide a huge opening for new domestic entrants in what has been a rigged game of social media. Or, what happened to Patreon may happen to others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaFSHBTDj5Y
It continues to amaze me how much idiots will fight tooth and nail to defend a guy who has consistently proven who little he cares for them.
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Cringelys obsession with boosting Trump sure is attracting the Trump nutters. Talk about desperate if you have to scrape the barrel for that audience…
Why do you think he’s boosting Trump. “He’s a reckless leader who isn’t bothered by things like, well, facts, so it shouldn’t be surprising that he expects to command WeChat into oblivion.” isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement. And most people I know either loathe him or think he’s Jesus 2.0. So any criticism is indicative of a “Trump’s an ass” type of opinion.
@Adam Luoranen
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Tell Cringely to knock off the US-centric navel gazing. You can hardly turn on the internet without “USA! USA! USA!” being rammed down. your throat. Even when reading something interesting the American idiot writing it has to bias towards America or namedrop America which breaks the immersion. And what is it with Americans slapping a stupid American flag on everything? Irritating “patriotic” lapel badges? Flags on the lawn?
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God, men are thick.
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[…] Robert X. Cringely / I, Cringely: President Trump thinks he can shut down WeChat: It won’t work […]
Once again cringe worthy embarrasses himself with obvious stupidity. Wechat is an operating system? Do some research you ignorant moron.
1998 he was predicting the internet would be important? By then it was already obvious to everyone.
Pity you failed high school English, otherwise you’d understand the concept of “metaphor”,
Interesting to me how many people are posting just to dis Cringely! Why bother guys? I find his columns usually worth a read. Yes, they are US-centric but then most stuff coming from the most ignorant Western country is, so what’s new? Chill out and enjoy your life! X
I agree 100% Mr Cringely. Wechat is huge without even being or needing the US. Although every Chinese and non Chinese person in the US would Use VPN if anything happens.
@Tom Hain
Cringely has been off the boil for years with rehashed and “second day news”. There’s also the delicate matter of his scalping his own readers with the Minesever fraud on top of a career based on lies and exaggeration. It was so bad his insurance company refused to pay up and he can’t get a job with any of the big name publications because they got burned when he made things up about IBM. He’s also not just US-centric but insultingly so. Nerds 2.0 was such a badly researched and presented show riding on lazy cliches it was embarassing. We still haven’t got any answers on why Cringely keeps omitting the UKs Channel Four from any mention of his own history and whether he actually had the use rights for the material he used for the Jobs movie he did or whether he simply stole it. Given Gringely was happy taking money for flying lessons off the RAF when he was at a private school in England which he may not have been entitled to I’m really beginning to wonder about his character. Then there is his history of violence and sexism off camera.
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There’s too many unanswered questions.
Bob’s buddy who is editor on slashdot.org posted this article there. Only 2 comment there so far so stop by later to check some more of them they are usually hilarious as reaction on every Bob’s article posted there.
Link:
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/20/08/09/1712228/cringely-predicts-the-us-cant-stop-wechat
It looks like Cringelys clickbaiting got him the attention he craved. The only people falling for this are people who don’t know the history of the IT industry and don’t read the newspapers closely. Cringely is dead in the water if he has to rely on his mate on Slashdot to push market his blog. This explains why Cringely has chasing Trump stories like a crazed hamster snorting cocaine or youtubers who have to clickbait with Elon Musk stories.
Is Cringely is trying to pivot to China and repeat his earlier success with taking money off naive Japanese businessmen for his “connections”? The slick suit and fast car hired for the day to impress the gullible and knee deep in Shenzhen prostitutes?
Questions stil lsurround how Cringely makes his money and his investments.
“It’s not what you know, but who you know” is a saying used in both business and government.
The origin of the saying is unclear, but there are two labor citations of the phrase in 1914 and 1918. “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know” became frequently used after 1937.
@wwwpirate
As we know Cringely has “connections” in China… Follow the money? I wonder where this sleazy trail ends. What the agenda is?
Semi-interesting article, but it sure must have touched a sensitive nerve with some people. Or is Mr. Trashtalk just talking trash, like all the other trolls?
There are two distinct issues going on here. They are interrelated, but casual readers might overlook em.
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The first is that Cringely is a semi-informed blowhard. That’s not a deal-breaker by itself — anyone can stand up any blog they want, pontificating about (nearly) any subject or activity they want, and it’s generally not for John Q. Public to stand in the way of that — but the content(s) and quality will drive a variety of responses, ranging from “That’s factually incorrect” to “That’s 10+ years out of date” to “You have a blatant bias steering you away from 100% objective truth” — you are seeing some of those responses above. Discount either (or both) side(s), author or critics, accordingly.
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The second is that Cringely has an increasingly-dirty track record of “semi-dodgy claims” and “semi-dodgy business ventures” and “semi-dodgy financial assertions,” stemming from unclear (self-glorifying?) motives, which call many of his dealings into question. The Kickstarter campaign is one. The California fire (which may or may not have destroyed his personal possessions, and which may or may not have happened at the same time as a failing incommunicado business venture) is another. The I-just-bought-all-Lockheed-F104s-in-the-world-as-satellite-launchers (replete with a falsified Photoshop image) is a third. There are a few other marginal cases, like his Stanford education, his quietly disappearing foil-based hard drives, his kid flunking out due to ‘pretty blondes and Latinas,’ and his occasionally-accurate-but-mostly-not IBM strategic forecasts, regurgitated from spotty “insider gossip.”
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Again — this doesn’t preclude one from reading or enjoying the guy’s writeups — but, past a certain point, whatever credibility and trustworthiness he had from ~1995 InfoWorld forward goes straight out the window.
Bob was great when he was a columnist. In my opinion the best ever but that was for that time and my personal opinion. A saw it once (think it was in Triumph of the Nerds) he talked how he got all e-mails from people in tech business and he knew just everything including who slept with whom. And in my opinion that was the key description – those people retired and he just could not do it any more because he had no inside information any more.
It is like basketball players number 8, 9 and 10 in Chicago Bulls during Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan era. Everybody thought they were good players but once Michael and Scottie retired they showed they were not even players for any other NBA team. So Michael and Scottie were all those people in tech business and Bob was just player no 9 on the roster.
Regardless Bob did in my opinion great job with the information he was getting at that time and even now he is technically good writer he just does not get any interesting/new information.
All other stuff he is getting into does not help of course if you are public person.
“They gave me a hand-carved wooden duck decoy that’s on my bookshelf today.”
It survived the house fire?
It’s amazing how many things survived this terrifying fire that destroyed all the Mineservers, including the invisible ones.
“It survived the house fire?”
Hey, when your life is in danger and you have to run, you make the hard choices. You can rescue one, maybe two things. Do you take the computer with all your work on it? Do you grab the wedding photos? Do you get your wife’s jewelry box? No, you take … [checks notes] …the “hand-carved wooden duck decoy”
Duh.
He can’t shut everyone out but he can shutout most people. My in-laws use it all the time to connect to family in China and i’ll probably help them sideload it or use a VPN, but a lot of people won’t have the ability to do this. It will be a catastrophic blow to any hope they have of extending their business in the US, which isn’t such a bad thing since China has blocked nealy every US company.
I confess this was pretty much my reaction as well. Let’s charitably assume that 35% of the commentators + visitors to this blog know how to set up a proxy, or TOR, or VPN, or a custom install, or any of the above. That still leaves thousands of blog-visitors — and hundreds of millions of Westerners — who won’t be able to.
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The moment my (hypothetical) pre-teen kid gets onto a chat network, but discovers 50% to 80% of her friends can’t (or won’t) (or are parent-forbidden) — well, that’s the day my kid finds a different app to chat with them.
Trump can shut all the US out of WeChat and it won’t miss a beat. Have you been to China lately? Outside the super-expensive hotels, you can’t use Mastercard or Visa anywhere. You use WeChat or AliPay. Flip the question around – suppose the Chinese banned Visa and Mastercard. Would you say that they’d both die? Well, they did, and large chunks of the world just didn’t notice.
Re: “Would you say that they’d both die?” When Dan said “most people” he meant most people in the US would be shut out. No one said anything about dying or attempting to kill anything. Each country will continue to use what’s available within it’s borders.
Cringely has always been a tool for rich people and been laughed at by them in equal measure. His gambit is to be irritating so he catches enough peoples attention he begins to make waves then catch his eye. It’s how he got the material for “Triumph of the Nerds”. I’ve watched a clip of a US news show where the other guests began openly mocking him. Serious people have looked puzzled why he was obsessed with pipes in his Three Mile Island rip-off of other peoples work. Nerds 2.0 was a lazy embarassment. We know from past form he’s angling to hook a “whale” for his next “get rich quick” scheme.
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Having attended an English private school Cringely should know what “Blackballing” and “Being sent to Coventry” is.
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Can we have some truth about the Mineserver fraud and the house allegedly burning down and these alleged start ups?
Quote: “I’ve watched a clip of a US news show where the other guests began openly mocking him.”
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Seriously? I’m surprised that the topic of Cringely even came up on a US news show. Do you know what show it was?
So, Bob is hardly the first pundit to jump on this topic. I’ve read perhaps a dozen takes on the potential US WeChat embargo.
Personally, I can’t waste too much time thinking about this issue at the moment. I do feel it will be fascinating to see it play out as it could frame a lot of potential realignment between China and the rest of the world.
In a bigger-picture view of this, I’m most interested as to how a potential Biden administration will pick up on this issue. It is absolutely clear that the US (and I assume most of the rest of the world) is going to put in some significant new international operational processes in place going forward. Using China as a source of slave/cheap labor is going to end very soon. I don’t think the world has a choice.
The president of Tencent is a Stanford Goldman alumni. He even went to Michigan for his undergrad with Larry Page and Tony Faddel. Mostly they are in games. Strange they want to attack a game company and a short video company. Seem to me Google and Apple and Microsoft and Facebook and Amazon are bigger threats.
All 7 companies gather information from their users. The two Chinese companies are potential threats to the free world, since their government can take their collected information and possibly use it against free-world countries.
Edward Snowden proved that our government collects information about us although they should not and Facebook, Google, Instagram and just about any other web page collects information about us too some more some less which our government can obtain by simply issuing a subpoena so if you can explain what is a difference here ?
The difference is our government is not our enemy, despite the fact that the government, made of people, can make mistakes and misuse the information they gather. The primary purpose of a national government is to protect its citizens from other nations.
Ask those people in Portland if government was their friend or enemy ? If someone comes on you in uniform with no markings so you do not know to whom do they belong and tear gas you and beat you up those are not friends for sure. Government has no enemies as long as you go as sheep by what they want from you and that is true for any government at any time.
TikTok and We Chat do whatever every other application and web page does nothing more and nothing less.
Chinese government in this case would do same as any other government would. Everything else is just cheap propaganda.
Checking in for a Mindserver update. All I see is more Trump bashing. My kids’ now a Highschool senior so I need to change the Mindserver packing material ie T Shirt to size Large. Let me know when it ships. Thanks,
@Jeremy
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I had a look forthe clip but it’s either been taken down or I “misremembered” it. The clip I found which had the same format doesn’t seem to the the one I was thinking of. I still think Cringely is a bullshitter and some of his attitudes on camera stink.
It’s funny how Cringely boasts of “being there” and “having something to do with” things but this is always covered with a lot of smoke and mirrors like a hustler. Loads of people were “there” and I’ve got my share of stories I don’t have the brass neck to boast about. I just don’t have the gall to wrap them up in bullshit and claim something which isn’t real. At least one of these stories Cringely has written about as an outsider knowing nothing about what really happened or why like he has special insight. He doesn’t. I’m probably the only one who would say what really happened because I know other people involved haven’t and likely wouldn’t. As the issue is past the relevant statute of limitations there’s not much I can do and the proof of the story requires a few phone calls to get hold of and I doubt Cringely has their number. So my story is checkable and I’m not makign it up it’s just a few hurdles. Would I give the story to Cringely? If I might have done I wouldn’t any more and if I can bullshit like Cringely that’s a $500 million story which is also checkable. It shipped. “It changed the world.” I never made a penny off it.
Changing the subject Metal Foil Drives get a mention from 34:35-49:50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06M64l7pPIk
It never shipped in spite of claims to have a shipping date. It never made any money that anyone knows of. It never changed anything and disappeared without trace.
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It was hardwork listening to this video. Once you clock Cringelys bullshit formula you can’t unhear it. There’s hardly anything in this whole video which doesn’t reek of bullshit.
That’s the same video where Cringely claims to have invented the Trash Can icon on the Lisa, even though the people who actually were there say that it was Dan Smith and Bill Atkinson: https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Rosings_Rascals.txt Note that Cringely isn’t even mentioned as being on the team, or even employed at Apple at the time. Recall that he claimed in Triumph of the Nerds to be Apple Employee #12, even though the real Apple Employee #12 was Dan Kottke and Dan never mentioned Cringely either.
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When you start to look closely, there’s a pattern here. Cringely lies, over and over again, in order to make himself seem more important than he actually is.It’s a problem he’s had for a long, long time.
And it’s not even like you could say that Cringely mis-remembered the employee number. He simply isn’t recorded as an early Apple employee AT ALL. EVER.
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There are a bunch of lists of the first ten Apple employees. An Apple historian has compiled them all together and it looks like this:
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1.Steve Wozniak
2, Steve Jobs
3, Mike Markkula (an original investor, with Apple until Jobs returned)
4, Bill Fernandez
5, Rod Holt (did the Apple II power supply)
6. Randy Wigginton (rewrote BASIC for Apple II)
7. Michael Scott (Apple Executive) (original CEO)
8. Chris Espinosa (still with Apple) http://library.stanford.edu/mac/primary/interviews/espinosa/index.html
9, Sherry Livingston (secretary)
10. Gary Martin (accounting) [June 1977]
11, Don Breuner (see his answer below)
12 Dan Kottke http://www.digibarn.com/stories/dankottke/index.htm
13. John Draper (wrote Apple II’s EasyWriter) http://www.macworld.co.uk/mac/news/index.cfm?newsid=9874
14. Mike Wagner http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1mDuQZhj9tIJ:apple2.org.za/gswv/a2zine/GS.WorldView/Resources/ROAD.APPLE/RA.2.html&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
15. Donna Whitney http://www.isualum.org/en/awards/distinguished_awards_celebration/honorary_alumni_award/donna_whitney_2009/
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Bob claims that, as employee #12, he helped the company move out of Jobs’ garage. But this doesn’t even pass the smell test. Garages are only so big. By the time Mike Markula joined as an employee, they had already moved out. Rod Holt, #5, was hired to do the Apple ][ power supply. The Apple ][ was not designed in Jobs’ garage! Only the Apple I was.
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So it’s not just a lie, but an easily-disproved one.
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Later on in the video Cringely claims that Cisco was founded in his office and that he “helped” found Excite.I leave judging the veracity of these claims as an exercise for the reader.
Source: https://www.quora.com/Who-were-the-first-25-employees-at-Apple
@Jeremy
You’re more on the case than I am. I tend to look more at not just what but how things are said and what isn’t being said and where the emphasis and smoke screens are. Still, it’s an exciting detective story.
Thanks, trashtalk. I’m obsessed with pointing out Cringely’s lies for a couple of reasons. Mostly it’s about the simple act of lying. I could criticize Cringely’s performance in that video you posted for any number of reasons: amateurish presentation, bad jokes, taking fully half of the time allotted to what was supposed to be a talk about startups to pitching the startup you’re doing consultant work for, and so forth. But none of that seems important.
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But the lying really gets to me. I’m kind of obsessed with what happens to a society when lying becomes acceptable and the norm. The Chernobyl disaster was one example, and according to Gorbachev it led directly to the collapse of the Soviet Union. North Korea is another–I’ve read tons of books about that failed state, and the stories are all heart-wrenchingly horrible. And now, in 2020, we have all suffered through four years of Trump’s non-stop constant lying and his party’s relentless attempts to bow down and kowtow to him, even when he contradicts himself. The results are self-evident and not at all pretty.
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Plus, it’s kind of fun doing this sort of detective work. It’s very satisfying. Also, I’m writing a science fiction novel about an AI on Mars who has to do some online detective work to unmask a conspiracy, and this work at times feels like research. 🙂
I like the detective angle. As much as I like action it’s a nice antidote to content free dramatics and going in guns blazing. An AI detective seems valid. It was one very small element of Ian M. Banks Consider Phlebas and a very tiny part of the show Active Carbon. You can also see threads of detective work in Frederick Forsyths The Fourth Protocol and the game Deus Ex.
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I have no idea where you’re novel is heading and how things break down in the story between online or offline but if the AI wants to act offline I’m guessing they would ask someone or use social engineering to extend their presence into the real world or places beyond where they can reach? The meta questions can get a bit philosophical. I also think it’s an interesting premise to explore AI in ways which don’t hype them as Terminator style slaughter machines or all the other existential angst.
Things aren’t too good in the UK but the Tories have always had a weakness for lies and sleaze so it’s not like it’s a surprise. But as you say this never heads down a good path.
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I don’t know if you’re old enough but I remember watching Chernobyl unfold on the news. I’m not sure anyone atthe time appreciated quite how scary it was or how close it came. I’d certainly place the television drama Chernobyl as a work of drama on the same pedestal as Edge of Darkness. (You wouldn’t want to watch Threads twice. It’s really depressing.) Chernobyl was a real gem of a show. They don’t come along very often.
Trashtalk: I was in high school when Chernobyl happened. I remember being frightened at first, and then feeling like it really showed the incompetence of the USSR’s ruling class. Not that the folks running the US back then were all that on-the-ball either! I think those times were really summed up by the Genesis video Land of Confusion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq7FKO5DlV0 It seems rather apt today as well.
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The Chernobyl show was indeed a masterpiece.
Looking up the years Edge of Darkness was first broadcast only the year before Chernobyl. Crikey. I didn’t know it was that long ago. I was in college back then. (The 2010 movie is utter cack.) The Fourth Protocol book came out the year after Chernobyl. The 1980s had loads of good movies. Music and film have pretty much been on a downward spiral since 1997. I think that was the last year I ever stepped foot in a cinema.
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Well, I hope we don’t have to wait too long for your book. (I won’t ask for teasers or a relase date.) The biggest tip I know of is get a good editor. Hopefully your AI is as fun as Orac, or has its own unique personality. I really like that kind of thing.
Well, if you can’t wait, and if you’ll indulge me in a bit of shameless self-promotion in a completely inappropriate forum, you can find the first book in my AI series here: https://jeremyreimer.com/rockets-item.lsp?p=45.lsp (the sequel should hopefully come out next year)
I just remembered one of my clients is an editor and published author. He prefers editing to writing books. The one or two books he wrote was him scratching an itch. It was one of my longer client meetings and fascinating. We never actually ended up doing anything other than having a fascinating conversation.
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I had a quick look. It’s been a while since I read a book in bed and a pleasure I’ve been meaning to indulge. No promises how far I will get through it or whether I give you any feedback or whether the feedback is any good. I shall try and read it fresh eyes although I’m tearing it apart and haven’t got through a full page yet. I’m not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing. As for writing, myself, I’m more a concepts person myself and usually bite off more than I can chew. I’m not sure I have the talent or patience for writing serious fiction. I couldn’t repeat anything fictional I could write for my escort site on here although how much could be fiction and how much would be true is a hazy line. At least you wrote something and put it out there. That’s pretty brave.
@Jeremy
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I read through some of your book last night and ended up skipping pages and fell asleep. That’s the bad news out of the way. I do think you need a better editor. For me the books seems like a collection of too many improbabable and unlikely things stitched together. It didn’t set scenes very well and jumped about with immersion breaking bad logic. One pitpick is you sometimes repeat dialogue which causes the wrong kind of flashback and seems like you’re writing text by the yard. Beneath this I think you get alot of the basic building blocks technically right and in some cases there’s a flash of being done very well. I think if you have another try with structure and perspective and the more feely stuff I don’t see why you you couldn’t write a page turner. It’s really just a question of drawing out your skills and views and putting them on the page which draws the reader in.
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Lots of authors published by the big houses have forever unpublished drafts in the deskdrawer. Some have written junk which was saved by their editor after a few rewrites. I would seriously have a look at The Forth Protocol. Frederick Forsyth was a journalist and you can tell this by reading his books. The point isn’t to copy him but see how he wrote to his strengths. A good editor, I’m guessing, should be able to draw this out of you too. I don’t think Cingely gets this which is why he treats the Uks Channel Four with contempt and why he was written almost complete drivel since leaving PBS. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is why he quit or got kicked (whichever is closer to the truth).
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I would also pay much more attention to book covers and the blurb. They can really set expectations which is one reason why Kubrick obsessed over them. It’s also one reason many suspect “Eyes Wide Shut” never clicked properly. Titles and advertising happened after he died without his input and the movie was missold.
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(Word filter acting up again.)
@Jeremy
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Escort is no different and no easier and I’m asking the same questions about my work. I wrote a paragraph explaining some of the equivalent issues but the word filter was playing up too much I had to ditch it.
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I’ve been doing a lot of “pre-production” kind of work including everything from what pictures and videos to take and how to package them, what to wear for media and when being on the job because they’re not always going to be the same. There’s things which work in the movies but in all honesty don’t work out that way in real life. This is because I either feel a complete dork or the client is overcome with lust. What to wear and when and why? What kind of towels to buy and how to arrange them to what handbag to use and how to pack it. When to switch on “escort mode” and whether to escalate lust and when and how to slow things down. It can be a really delicate balancing act between technique and protecting myself emotionally for what is a really intimate and personal thing.
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It’s crossed my mind to write straight fiction and also write some porn for my escort site. Just sticking with the porn stuff it has to be “on brand” and can’t give anyone the wrong idea so I have to be careful. The line between fact and fiction could also get very blurry. I don’t want to write bad porn and also want it to be more than banal. It has to have more to it.
Hey trashtalk,
Thanks for buying the book. I’m sorry it didn’t live up to your expectations. I’m curious, though (and feel free to answer me in email if you like as this is getting very far off-topic)–can you give any examples of repeated dialogue? I had the whole book read in its entirety by four different editors, and I’m surprised that they (and I) missed this. If there’s an obvious error I’d love to be able to fix it. Thanks!
@Jeremy
It’s mainly verbal ticks plus a few other things. Once you don’t gel with one thing other things tend to stand out like plot points and pacing. Four editors didn’t spot anything wrong with the first paragraph? You only need one good editor. I’d want to see samples or their CV.
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They say the best response to a work of art is another work of art. That’s a good reason to write my own novel. I have some ideas just nothing I’ve started on yet. It’s not easy and I’m sure I have plenty of my own writing faults. I’m good with concepts and technical things based on real world experience and research but this doesn’t make a story. I also don’t want to be too preachy or cliche ridden. For now it’s hard work doing a 12 picture shoot or scripting a movie short 2-10 minutes long. I mean, yes, I could push something out just because and people will pay for it but I’d rather not. I’m also taking my time with this until I have production properly organised because once it is out there if it’s any good I know other escorts will begin pinching ideas. I know because I do and I’ve caught them out too! In a lot of ways it doesn’t actually matter because clients aren’t interested in a gimmick in the way men get caught up in technology but more the package. They want me and although yes it helps but not what I’m wearing or how a video is done.
Erm, no, I’m still having trouble spotting something wrong with the first paragraph. It reads:
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“Mike strolled down the beach, his eyes half-closed, so lost in his own thoughts that he almost didn’t see the concrete wall leaping out of the water and slamming to a halt mere inches from his face.”
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Help me out here?
Pretty much the whole sentence. The whole sentence doesn’t build an scene and covers too many things and doesn’t make logical sense either spatially or experience wise. You’re leaping in too fast and not describing the kind of experience people would expect. If you scrubbed the whole line and rewrote it to be walking down a pavement and somebody leaping out at a ninety degree corner and slamming you in the face with an iron bar, maybe. The hole beat and mood which follows would be different but the beat and mood you have doesn’t make sense either. as the protagonist meets another character with a different VR system the look and feel is another wrench again. By this point you really lost me.
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There was no scene building to the big mysterious character and building splitting in half and the whole write up was just wrong. The protagonist would have to be a half starving and very stupid journalist to walk into that one. When I started escort a few people tried dodges and I can tell you this is a situation I wouldn’t go anywhere near. You just don’t. If and only if the protoganist does you really need to write around this a lot more and it must be to drive the plot forward.
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You can write building blocks.You have no problem with this and I do think you can manage flow and a pulp fiction quality acceptable for modern readers. I just don’t think you’re managing to write a story.
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Read the blurb for The Fourth Protcol. Notice how it leans in very hard on the main character and opening scenes and general background. It sets the expectations for the novel. While Forsyth does let people in on “secrets” they’re very plausible and he takes time to describe both the scene and the gimmick and consequences andwhatpeople arethinking and feeling or how they believe others may react. He also structures his story well flipping from one persons view to another with them sometimes being at different times and places. Your story lacked these elements and rolled along in a linear way.
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“The chilling thriller from an international bestselling phenomenon.
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Plan Aurora, hatched in a remote dacha in the forest outside Moscow and initiated with relentless brilliance and skill, is a plan within a plan that, in its spine-chilling ingenuity, breaches the ultra-secret Fourth Protocol and turns the fears that shaped it into a living nightmare.
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A crack Soviet agent, placed under cover in a quiet English country town, begins to assemble a jigsaw of devastation. MI5 investigator John Preston, working against the most urgent of deadlines, leads an operation to prevent the act of murderous destruction aimed at tumbling Britain into revolution…”
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The mistake I believe your editors missed wasn’t with what you did right. It’s they didn’t tell you what you left out. I think this also helped kill a sense of page turning pace. Movies are a bit different because it’s more a visual language and the script density is a lot lower but drawing people in and antipication and how people experience a sense of time isn’t dissimilar. This is why I’m working on movies as possibly short as two minutes. It’s so I can try a lot of new to me things but I also want to create a much bigger and more textured experience so I can avoid creating drawn out “filler” or unecessary repitition. It’s also like a short story I can practice with before doing something bigger and also to get used to the work so it’s easier to do and I get used to routinely creating fresh material.
Okay, that’s fair criticism of the style, but it’s not an error as you seemed to imply.
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I’ll note that the norm these days in speculative fiction is to jump right into things, rather than have a slow buildup. It’s a deliberate choice. You want to hit people with craziness in first sentence and have them a bit confused, wondering what is going on. When the character takes his VR goggles off a few paragraphs later, it becomes obvious what was happening.. It’s a stylistic choice, and you’re absolutely 100% within your rights to not like it.
@Jeremy
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I still think I’m right but fair comment and valid enough. I did suspect there was an age thing going on with your writing plus if you’re playing to a different market that’s your gig. Thanks for hearing me out. I’d rather give my honest view than bullshit.
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I’ve had people blow smoke up my ass and an escort friend gave me her views on presentation which can get very personal which I later discovered were right and took them on board. It took some getting there though as I learned more about what worked and didn’t. I’ve now moved ten levels past this and it’s been taking me months to get eyeliner millimetre perfect and by millimetre I do mean millimetre. Outside of fashion magazines and possibly Hollyood red carpet I can’t think of any woman I know over the age of 40 who bothers. Oh, well. That’s more money for me. Back to what you said there’s clear differences in how some escorts write. It’s different but similar to your own reasoning. The thing is there’s enough market demand you can stick with your own thing and everything works out fine.
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I guess it’s my turn next to write the serious novel as and when that will be. As long as any comment is meant honestly there’s no harm. I’ve had ideas for some time but never done anything with them. Partly that’s technical and it’s an area where well regarded producers have fallen over with plus I need enthusing. I can’t write “just because” and my brain goes offline if money is the only motivation.
@Jeremy – I looked at the preview of your novel on Amazon.
Sorry… but the first sentence reminded me of “It was a dark and stormy night” and the Bulwer Lytton Fiction Contest. 🙂
I didn’t manage to get through the sample. In my opinion you should do a lot of reading of top books in the genre you want to write in, and study their style and writing techniques methodically and carefully.
Good writing is a craft. Like any other craft it has to be carefully studied, learned, practiced and polished over a period of years. It doesn’t just happen.
@GreenWyvern, I appreciate your honest feedback, even if I must admit it stings.
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I will say this: people have very different opinions on fiction writing, and one person’s favorite style is completely unappealing to another person. Some folks love to read long, meandering descriptions of locations and characters that go on for pages, while others grind their teeth or even skip over such descriptions to get to the action. The purpose of the Amazon preview is to be completely honest and let someone get a representative sample of the writing, and if they don’t like it? That’s absolutely fine; the book is not for them. Everyone doesn’t have to like the same things! There are popular authors in the genre that I absolutely cannot stand, and obscure ones that I love, and vice versa.
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I would ask you this one favor, however, to let me get a slightly better sense of who my potential audience is and who it isn’t: can you name your favorite sci-fi authors and your least favorite ones?
@GreenWyvern @Jeremy
I would agree with looking at top books in a genre. I use the same approach generally. If you have the basics you can pick up a lot from people at the top of their field. Accumulated knowledge and transferrable skills helps too.
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Thankfully the bar with escort isn’t that high plus I have skills other escorts don’t have so have my niche. Mind you it’s the same. There’s much more to it than just taking the money and spreading your legs. It’s probably taken me a year in total to change my makeup look and not long ago nearly a whole month researching and trying out new makeup and techniques to get things how I want them. That’s an entire field in itself and I know one hundredth of a top makeup artist. Not only do you need to know your materials but your face then you have to balance this against lifetyle issues including wearability and what you wear and where you wear it. I now have a standard look I can anywhere whether the bedroom or the office or shopping. Few people realise that Marilyn Monroe and Sophia Loren once they achieved their looks never changed their look for the rest of their lives. Writing books isn’t too different in principle.
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I’ve also been building up a list of hair and clothes looks and sample pictures from photo libraries. A lot of these will be for photoshoots and not just the tits out legs spread nonsense. I’m learning from top wardrobe stylists and models and photographers. It’s one reason why I took a deep look at Kubrick.
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There’s other stuff which comes out of all this including working with the “male gaze”. What will a man see if I wear this and sit or stand or lie down like that. Some of it is fairly subtle. Yes, I also use a tripod or selfie stick with a camera to to see what they will see. Yes, I’m borrowing from the better quality movies not porn to compose this.
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Then there’s jewellery and fabrics.
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If you look at a magazine or online sales catalogue there sometimes isn’t much difference in principle between a standard picture and an erotic picture. It’s sometimes just a few little tweaks, a pose, and the light or angle. It’s hardly any difference between leaning against a wall waiting for a bus and leaning against a wall and inviting it. Sometimes there’s no difference at all on the surface if I’m doing an out-call. It’s only when I step through the door and flip the switch and the coat comes off followed later by the dress assuming I’m wearing one.
@Jeremy
What you need is a book agent. Book agents know the market and know publishers. They’re usually a first port of call for anyone wishing to publish with established and reputable publishing houses. An agent may grab you first time or you may have to shop your work around.Some people are publishable on their first try while others have to write a few stories before they reach the standard. Agents sometimes give advice but as they receive hundreds of submissions it will usually be very brief. Getting an agent is the first step because publishing houses use them as a filter. If you send a work direct to a publisher the chances are it will end up in the bin. Even with agents as a firstline publishers receive hundreds of works. Your work can sit on the pile for a long time until a publisher looks atit or takes a second look if they feel there is a gap in the market and they need someone new.
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I’ve mentioned editors before,and publicity blurb and art design… I’m still puzzled how you had four editors look at your work and we still don’t know what their CV is. Anandtech editors and proof readers don’t count. I want to know what books they’ve edited and what the reviews and sales were.
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In all honesty it’s not worth asking most peoples opinion because they don’t know. There may be common themes if you ask around but in all honesty what GreenWyvern is probably best.You’re going to have to do the job of an agent yourself and hope you get the right editor. Did you even use a proper layout designer? That’s quite a bit of work in itself.
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You can write what you want and use small publishers and vanity publishers but the basics don’t shift. You could write the one breakway novel which sells a million copies but this is how the publishing industry works. It’s not much different for movies.
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I’m also only telling you what people who work in the industry and best selling authors have said.
@Trashtalk, your advice is all perfectly sound, albeit for someone wanting to get published in the 1990s. The industry is completely different now. Agents don’t typically look for new authors, and agencies are dwindling in any case. Jobs like a layout designer don’t exist anymore– it’s all handled in software. Vanity publishers don’t exist any more. The self-publishing industry now generates more money than the traditional publishing industry. I could go on and on.
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Ultimately, the choice to self-publish does mean that you end up having to do a lot of the work on your own. It’s not something you do for money. Yes, I do enjoy the extra bit of cash that flows into my bank account each month, but it’s not my main gig. Nor is it for most people.
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trashtalk, you said earlier that you won’t start writing your novel because “I can’t write “just because” and my brain goes offline if money is the only motivation.” That’s it in a nutshell. You write because you can’t not write. You feel compelled to do it, and keep doing it, no matter what people say. Yes, it is a craft, and you can and do improve over time. Yes, it is a long process. No, not everyone will like your writing, no matter what you do. At the end of the day, you can only please one person: yourself. That’s true for most things in life, I find.
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I still take the feedback seriously and I am still dedicated to improving. I could get all defensive and point out that my first novel won an award from the Apple iBookstore, or that my reviews have tended to be mostly positive, or that my non-fiction work has done spectacularly well, enough that it got me hired for my current gig of six years and also got me hired to write scripts for an upcoming series, but I find that being defensive isn’t really that helpful to anyone. I thank the people for giving feedback and try to learn what I can from it.
@Jeremy – The technical term for your last paragraph is ‘apophasis’. “I could mention x, y, and z, but I’m not going to (except that I just did).” 🙂
I’ve been reading science fiction since I was 6 years old (I’m 61 now). As a teen I had shelves of SF, literally hundreds of books, all read from cover to cover. All the classic authors, and any number of collections of short stories.
I’ve remained a fan all my life, though I read less SF these days. I also enjoy non-SF children’s books and YA fiction. I’ve also read a lot of serious literature, Tolstoy’s War and Peace at least three times, Latin and Greek literature, 18th century (love Tristram Shandy!), and 19th century literature. Historical novels, from C.S. Forester to Hilary Mantel (highly recommended!), and a lot of serious academic history. A fair amount of fantasy too – love Tolkien, hate the movies.
Back to SF. I’m currently reading A Memory Called Empire by Arkady Martine, the 2020 Hugo Award winner. It seems interesting and well-written so far.
Ann Leckie’s first book, Ancillary Justice, deserved all the awards it won a few years ago, but the two sequels were abysmal quality, really bad.
I’ve been a fan of C.J. Cherryh’s hard SF (the Alliance-Union universe) since the 1980s. I highly recommend her early books, and I like her as a person. I’ve always been a fan of Cordwainer Smith’s offbeat and lesser-known SF, and of Ray Bradbury. I like Douglas Adams in small doses. Cyberpunk SF – Gibson and all he inspired… so-so to meh (though I’ve been a professional software developer most of my life). In general I like hard SF.
@Jeremy, you may be an excellent non-fiction writer, but fiction and non-fiction are two different worlds, and require completely different skills. Silicon Minds of Mars has been on Amazon for 8 months and there isn’t even a single review. Writing SF is your hobby, and you say don’t need to earn an income from it. That’s fine, but there’s a difference between a dilettante and a professional.
Self-publishing is not going to replace professional publishing any time soon. It’s only one step higher than fanfic. It’s a matter of quality assurance and professional promotion.
@GreenWyvern thank you for your comments. You’re absolutely correct that Silicon Minds of Mars has not done that well. I failed to do what you’re supposed to do and seed reviews ahead of time with advanced review copies, and it never took off after that. Once you’ve fallen down the hole of the Amazon algorithm, it’s not likely to rebound. Curiously, it’s done better on non-Amazon platforms. I did receive a very nice unsolicited review on Kobo, for example. But the book failed to resonate with readers.
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I think you’re wrong (or at least outdated) with your views on self-publishing, however. True, traditional publishing is not going to be replaced and is not going away. It has shrunk, however.. The industry has changed in the last couple of decades, and publishers no longer provide any promotion at all outside of their best-selling and best-known authors. New authors are asked about their Twitter following before even being considered. Editors are being laid off on a massive scale, and even the quality of book covers has dropped in recent years due to cost-cutting. Meanwhile, self-publishing passed traditional publishing in terms of dollar sales some time ago. Most mid-list authors now supplement their income with self-published works, or have moved over completely.
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It is true that there is a lot more dreck available in self-publishing. That’s just the nature of the beast. But the dreck doesn’t sell and Amazon’s algorithm makes it effectively disappear. The stuff that does sell, does so by the bucketload. One could argue about the heavy prevalence of teen vampire romance novels, but traditional publishers are rather thick with those as well.
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Anyway, you’re absolutely correct that fiction is a completely different beast from non-fiction. It does require a different skill set. I will think about what you said.
Honestly I’m far to busy with other things for this… I don’t appreciate peoplere interpreting what I said and your perspective is just a perspective. I think you’re in a bubble and hearing what you want to hear. Please don’t bandy around words like “outdated” and assume you are the only person who has done anything in life and knows anything. Lastly DTP autokerning is absolutely not a replacement for a layout designer even if Kindle and the web have turned everything to garbage.
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If you’d taken a different attitude I probably wouldn’t have put a refund request in after your previous comment. As it turned out as I was drafting this the refund had been processed and granted. A book which caught my eye in the meantime is much more readable to me and is published by a mainstream publisher and has dozens of critics quotes praising it. Formulaic I know and I know all their tricks and yes it costs more but it had everything I said I liked in it including a page turning quality.
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If you can’t get past me you’re never going to get an agent.
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Lastly, don’t piss off the person who might be fucking the boss you want to impress.
trashtalk, I’m sorry that I upset you. I was perhaps a bit too flippant. But the publishing world has definitely changed over the last two decades. The traditional route is still there and still available, and I still buy books from the Big Five (note that it used to be Six!) But there are other places and other alternatives available as well, and some of my friends (who are voracious readers) have migrated their reading habits over to that side. Sadly, a lot fewer people are reading in general these days! Between Netflix, YouTube, and Twitch, a lot of people only get their entertainment in visual form. Which is too bad, I think.
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I am not looking to impress a boss or get an agent. I have chosen a different route. It might be longer, and more complicated, and I might not ever get there. But that’s where I’m going.
One could consider Kindle self-publishing a form of vanity press.
Pressing on . . .
Omit needless words.
One does not write; one re-writes.
How to Write Best-Selling Fiction by Dean Koontz. Probably close to 40 years old but fun to read nonetheless.
Telling Lies for Fun and Profit by Lawrence Block. Ditto.
Worlds of Wonder (How to write Science Fiction and Fantasy) by David Gerrold. Own it but haven’t read it.
Show; don’t tell.
I don’t believe that the self-publishing industry is as successful as it claims.
Sure, the numbers of self-published books are high – 1.7 million in 2018, probably well over 2 million in 2019. But those numbers mean nothing.
How many paying readers does each of those 2 million books have? I would guess that well over 95% of them have less than 10 paying readers, and generated less than $50 in income.
If anyone can find reliable stats about income generated from self-publishing, I’d be interested. The conventional publishing industry is worth about $27 billion/year in the US, and publishes about 100,000 new books a year.
Yes, there are occasional cases of individuals who have been successful from self-publishing (after conventional publishers took up their self-published books), and a very few who manage to earn some kind of living, but they are exceptions.
I did the math on this once — my Quora post has long since been expunged — but, of the <10,000 American individuals listing "author" as their primary wage-earning profession, not even one thousand broke the $100K earnings threshold, and two-thirds of those 'six-figure authors' were advert/copy/marketing professionals — the true number of 'financially self-sufficient writers' (excluding business writers) was in the low-hundreds range, and only ~60 of these were the Dean Koontz Joanne Rowling Stephen King millionaire echelon, tapering sharply thereafter. (Doesn't account for past deceased writers, of course.) It's a thin atmospheric layer.
Most industries are broadly similar in that you have large companies and collections of individuals and the tilt of this changes with time. Sometimes it swings one way. Sometimes it swings the other. It varies from country to country and region to region. There really is nothing new happening with the book industry and I can map equivalents with the escort industry very easily. Games and movies and Youtubing is the same too. Once you understand the generic everything else is a big yawn.
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I think in its own funny way it explains why Cringely lost the plot and got booted and why he’s desperately crazy for “one last job” where he can re-enter the big time but is left chewing up his own legacy audience.
I know a guy who is a very successful self-publisher. He’s a real estate investment expert and start writing how-to books about 40 years ago. About 15 years in, he started having problems getting paid by his publisher, so he switched to self-publishing and tripled his income.
He has a very healthy ego. On his blog, he once wrote that “How-to” books were the “highest form” of writing, because if your advice was wrong, other how-to experts would call you out on it. The next highest level was other non-fiction, followed by fiction, which was the lowest, because you “Make everything up.” I would think that he had the order reversed since, in fiction, you make everything up, but it has to fit together and make sense. Non-fiction doesn’t have to make sense, as much as we’d like it to. Anyway, the guy got it in his head to write a novel. He said he normally spends about 9 months writing one of his books. It took him four years to write his novel. I figured it was going to be bad, but I bought it anyway. And it was horrible. Amusingly, on his FB page he made some comment to one of his other FB friends about how deus ex machina is lame. And his novel is resolved by a last minute “save” from left field. And he was wondering recently why no one who he sent a review copy (3 years ago) ever got back to him…
I watched an interview with Andy Wier last night. He wrote three stories which went nowhere before he made a serious effort with The Martian. As people wanted convenience he went from giving it away to producing a web page version to Kindle at the very lowest permissible price because the platform wouldn’t allow him to give it away for free. Someone recommended it to Random House and one of their editors approached him. The editor also contacted an agent he knew to take a look at it and give their opinion whether it was a book worth pursuing. They also recommended Andy find an agent and this was the agent he went with. When they began work on the book the first recommendation the editor made was not to dive straight into the action but to explain purpose and set the scene.
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Andy got really lucky but this doesn’t take anything away from him. In some ways it’s like movie is written threetimes: once by scriptwriter, once by the director, and once in the editing suite. A book isn’t always 100% the effort of a single person either.
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I’ve been doing escort for a while now. I have a roadmap and that includes deconstructing the work of other women in various industries with overlapping skillsets who are at the top of their game. I’m not going to give anything away but one sourceI examined was Fox News footage and the movie “Bombshell”. I have pretty much discounted this look. Yes I can do it and would do in a toned down way if I needed to but it’s not a look I have much need for personally or professionally. The only thing I too away from this is to work on super glossy lipstick. I did more research and discovered two ways of getting superlong lasting and glossy lipstick. This is just one editing tweak. Most women won’t know these tweaks and most clients won’t notice them either. It’s just one more thing that improves the “fit and finish” so the visual and the wardrobe and my basic pitch weld together as a coherent narrative. Somewhere in the narrative I’m spinning is the real me. Like a lot of stories the protoganists is often a vehicle for an authors wishful thinking and like a lot of movies reflective of casting. And that also how in a lot of ways The Martian turned out to be the sucess it was both as a book and a movie.
@trashtalk, sorry I’m late to the game in responding to this, as Bob’s blog has become stale and I don’t care much to keep up with it regularly anymore, and you’re going to hate my response, and that’s okay. I’m also aware you don’t like people telling you how you feel, but I feel safe making that claim based on what I’m about to say. If you like my response, color me surprised.
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Now that that disclaimer is out of the way, @trashtalk, you are the definition of someone who can dish it but cannot take it. You constantly jump in conversations and make wild claims and if ANYONE misinterprets or disagrees with anything you say, you jump down their throats (pun possibly intended).
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You seriously need to get over yourself. Your ego is just as big as Bob’s and you were kind of a dick to Jeremy (no pun here). He didn’t request you to bash his novel, he simply shared it if you were interested. Instead you went about claiming you barely read books anymore and then decided to declare yourself an expert and tell him everything wrong with his modern take on literature that didn’t live up to your standards. There are things called opinions, and it may shock you, but your’s is not LAW. You have a mindset that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong and the biggest chip on your shoulder that I have ever had the misfortune to interact with and I just finally had it.
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I’ll go back to my cave and you’ll go back to your soap box and the world will keep turning and nothing will matter, but I just had to say something because god damn you are full of yourself!
I think you came out a bit hot, but you’re not wrong. Trash Talk has set a standard for herself that it’s her way or the highway. I enjoy a bit of what she writes, but also cringe at a lot of the bashing and name calling she spews from her high and mighty throne. It’s funny to me that someone theorized she was Bob at one point, mostly because they both do love to name call (and have huge egos as you noted). Maybe there is a twisted truth to that theory after all. That’d be a fun treat!
Anyways, can’t we all just get along and return to bashing Bob, or Trump, or whoever it is we’re supposed to be targeting (I lost track)…
Oh hark at the philosopher-king. I’m sorry darling but I do set the standards at my end at least. You’re welcome to lower your own of course. I’m sure you do and do it very well too as the tiny pricks of tears at the corners of your eyes and machine gun snot bubbles of impotent rage so eloquently enthuses! Go and have a tug on me, sweetie.You’ll feel better.
Haha, I love it! Way to prove Eric right! No acknowledgement that anything you do could be wrong, just talking down to him and deducing that if they are not in agreement with you, they must be wrong. I have to admit I’m pleased someone finally called you out on it, as I’ve been thinking it for some time now just seemed out of place to bring it up. I’ll happily drop it after this comment, but since we’re having the conversation, I just wanted to chime in that I don’t think Eric is completely off base here, though his delivery could use some work, but perhaps he’s fighting fire with fire, who knows.
Regardless, you do have a knack for talking down to a lot of people on these forums and rarely seem to have moments of “learning” from others, just lectures that usually end with you berating those who disagree with you. You could benefit to listen a bit more before attacking others. We all could, tbh. Take care all, stay safe!
I’m sure you don’t care, but for what it’s worth, I’m in agreement and think you could use a bit of humble pie.
I do get the impression that you work very hard to show you’re not just a cheap hooker — your comments are often a combination of the rebellious “I’m an escort! Ha! Go ahead and look down on me, I dare you!” and the “Actually, I’m really smart and know all this stuff and it’s not just sex we *talk* a lot and there’s more to me than my body and I’m actually using them, not the other way around!”
I don’t have a problem with you being an escort. I try to be very sex-positive and have worked to make sure my kids are as well. So if it’s your choice to be an escort, that’s great. And if you are educated and intelligent, all the better. Being an escort doesn’t make you any less of a person but neither does it make you any better.
Well said and tactful, Roger. I think that’s the missing piece with trashtalk – she recognizes the first half, but doesn’t agree with the second half of the last sentence.
You’re all idiots, shut up, no one cares!!!
Bob, would love to hear your thoughts on the political conventions going on right now. Care to weigh in?
Mother?
Is that you?
Gnarfle, sweetie, why are you out of bed again? Here, take my hand and let me tuck you back in. ❤️
Mother . . . how did you get out of the basement?
Back to the rocking chair for you!
When you lot have finished? I’m obviously not going to give a drive-by attack any credence nor fuel a pile on. Now you’ve all had your vent name one single line or general meaning in my “The Martian” post which is a problem. Name any single problem with my dicussing the topic of book publishing. Point out in any single way the comments lack expertise (and don’t assume just because I don’t explicitly mention an issue doesn’t mean I don’t know about it. Name also how anyone elses contribution on the topic differs. Go over my entire posting history and name one single instance where I called anyone a name.
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As part of my day job I meet people like book editors, notable musicians who fill stadiums, financiers, sportsmen, university professors, millionaires, military officers, marketers and the like. I also meet a lot of very ordinary men who some would consider unremarkable. Many are not rich. Not everyone is Brad Pitt. Stray thought: High end is expensive. Not everything which is expensive is high end. My costs are low because I don’t base myself in five star hotels unless the client is paying nor do I base myself in premium locations unless the client is paying. I pass these savings on to my clients. Every single client gets the exact same level of service. In my private records I score clients to my own system. The best way to get a VIP rating off me is to first be a decent man and presentable and show some give and take. Getting to see me is brutal. I reject 70% of prospective clients offhand. On top of that I haven’t seen a single client since a month before lockdown. I always wear a mask when I go out and avoid crowds and busy or unvented buildings. Most of my shopping is delivery only so I don’t get to enjoy shopping trips and anyone like a builder who does visit has to follow PSE and distancing and ventilation rules.
So no I don’t I don’t give a rats ass about drive-bys.
I could be missing something, but the only person who mentioned anything about the books appears to be the original comment by @Eric. The rest were making observations on your general behavior, which I don’t believe were unfounded. You say you don’t like drive-bys, but you are constantly circling the neighborhood firing off bullets. I think you just don’t like being shot at, but have no problem being on the other end. Just my two cents.
@Stephen C.
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So nothing about my “The Martian” post just more personal comments? I get enough compliments in my day job but I thank men for their compliments and make no more of it. Of course it’s nice of them to say but I’m not going around putting myself on a pedestal. As for power trippers and drive-bys I brush them off and don’t make a scene about it. So really I have no idea what you are getting at.
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I’m not going to apologise for something I haven’t done just for appearances sake so if there is nothing specific you have to offer about “The Martian” post or any independent contribution of you own I consider the matter closed.
You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to be helped. You ignore everyone saying the same message over and over again, that you generally talk down to people and cast judgement while being open to receiving no criticism yourself, and yet you’re harping on the lesser issue that no one cares about. Oh well, hope you get there some day. Best of luck to you.
I don’t see it as ‘beneficial’ or ‘constructive’ for one faction of anonymous blog-commentators to start bashing another faction — not really any point, not materially related to any of the original blog-creator’s inputs or publications, not even verifiable as ‘authentic’ or ‘attributable’ or ‘having real-world impact.’ I mostly stay clear.
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But I’ll break my rule, just this once, for the space of 300 seconds or so.
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This individual is (allegedly) a ~53-to-57 year old (seemingly but not authoritatively) female(?) sex worker. (S)he has a lingering passion for vintage 1970s Brit sci-fi (Blake’s 7, etc.), describes some proficiency with computer-hardware (notably GPU and gaming peripherals), and has seemingly gone down the software-development/publishing route in recent years, even if only as a diversionary hobby. Said individual describes sexually-provocative cosmetics, costuming, photography, and lighting in repeated tiresome detail, and, by inference, still claims to participate in (pandemic-limited?) (teleconference?) solicitation of sex for money, creeping into the second standard deviation of menopausal age (if female) all the while.
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Though one-in-a-million Doogie Howser cases or day-job/night-job dualities are, theoretically, possible, this individual almost certainly does not exist as self-described. I assumed, some years back, that this userID was a sort of Munchausen metaphor, an IT consultant, sales, or similar, describing his/her activities using a ‘prostitution’ analog as dual-entendre performance art. Said user could even be Cringely himself, enacting diversions and slug-fests via false facade, though I tend to believe the Anglo/British part of the identity, based upon long-repeated diction and phrasing. Hey, anyone can claim to be anything on the faceless Internet.
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Long story short: Trash, you’re being a fickle patronizing bitch, you retreat into generalities between attacks in some ceaseless crusade to ‘never be wrong,’ and I’m all but certain your claimed identity and occupation are false. No one on this forum should hyper-obsess over anonymous posts — including my own. This blog is about a would-be technologist and his much-(over)hyped industry claims. Maybe stick to that.
Re: “This individual is (allegedly) a ~53-to-57 year old.” Just curious about how you came up with that age range.
‘[Said individual] was in college when [original British series Edge of Darkness] aired, the year before [1986] Chernobyl.’ Assuming any of this is even remotely truthful or factual, of course; see my earlier proviso(s).
Again, no actual direct and relevant comment about the content of my “The Martian” post which seemed to kick all this off just more trigger happy “spray and pray” attacks. Learn to shoot straight. You guys are worse than Stormtroopers. Americans, huh?
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I took pictures of course so I can show friends examples of online male rage. As for work I don’t even bother. Most women in the spaces people congregate to acquire services I used to socialise in have moved on. There’s still loads of available women on there but nobody I especially want to socialise with. Lots don’t bother either and are just on to lurk and pick up business. Every, and by every I mean every, man who tries to chat with me either wants to cadge an online freebie or wants to give me one. The British are actually the very worst for this. I got bored and didn’t stick about for more than ten minutes. That’s life as a responsible GFE escort in the middle of a pandemic. I was bored shitless. I’m sure men are getting a bit frantic during this pandemic which isn’t unlike being cooped up in prison for many. This may explain some of the shouty behaviour and collapse of social boundaries at the first whiff of pretty.
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I’ve styled my hair and makeup and it’s coming together nicely. The heavy mascara look with large pearl and gold studs and a smart jacket, colourful snood wrapped like a scrunchie, and white top which shows just a little bounce and jiggle you can spot from the other side of the road and long flowing skirt over boots probably has the gossips and curtain twitchers all agog but it’s tidy and street safe. For the curious white lace underneath and, horror of horrors, opaque black tights because they’re less bother and comfortable. Perhaps a touch mumsy for some but when going shopping I’d rather avoid the beggars being on me like a rash and street toughs dogging me up as I walk past. I also wore a mask as it’s the responsible thing to do. Yes it’s tiring wearing full makeup as the world doesn’t get to see the full effect but standards must be maintained.
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And that’s my day, really. Onwards and upwards!
I’ve been reading up on escorts in America. Specifically New York. One story mentioned a Madam taking a 50% cut at one extreme. At the other extreme escorts were paraded like cattle and the clients checked for fleas. I cannot find a single agency which provides comprehensive profiles or publishes rates. New York seems not to have moved past the 1980s. The sensational books and legislative view of the topic are a bit overwrought as well. I read through the very conservately written and ponderously boring wiki entry on this work in the US and it seems broadly in line with this impression. The US seems like a horrible place to do business. All I can say is I’m glad I don’t live or work there.
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50% fees have to be some form of joke. Paying 50% to a sleazeball who owns a website and who doesn’t care about escorts safety or health is just a no-no. How they can say 50% is an industry standard with a straight face I don’t know. That’s why any escort with brains goes independent. Only the young and naive work for an agency.
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Comparing myself to what is available and my own unsolicited client feedback I don’t think I have anything worry about. A lot of the US money seems to be chasing plastic in-your-face escorts. I’m not advertising in the US so it doesn’t bother me.
Cool story, bro. 🤷♂️
Nice messages in my in-tray today lamenting the pandemic and ever so politely a delicately looking forward to when I am open for business again.
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A black fella catcalling as I walked past when going out for essential shopping. I don’t wear red often as it sets men off.
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It’s so nice to be wanted.
Why couldn’t you just say “A fella catcalling…” I’m not sure I follow what “black” contributed to the conversation. Call outs to skin color have a place, as it’s what makes us all beautiful and unique, but in your sentence it didn’t serve that purpose and felt unnecessary to make that call out.
@Greg it’s because Trashtalk is from the UK and (s)he likes the BBC, in both meanings of the acronym.
🙂
Hi trashtalk. You seem to be hanging on to the fact asking for examples about “The Martian” post and having people ignore that. I might remind you of a similar request from Jeremy asking for examples of repeated dialogue (August 14, 2020 at 9:51 am), and you responding as others are now responding – general replies to the theme but not specifics. People recently are trying to get across the idea you can dish it but not take it (be it criticism, disagreement, whatever). In your case, you replied to Jeremy with generalities “It’s mainly verbal ticks plus a few other things.”
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Granted, with his follow-up request still wanting specifics, you did finally provide them. Just wanted to give an example though where you might relate (your first response was, as is now from others, speaking in general terms).
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Back to the current theme. Replies might have started after your post on “The Martian” but I don’t think that comment is actually relevant, or what people are coming at you for. If you look at the first post from Eric (August 26, 2020 at 12:02 pm), it’s referencing your interaction with Jeremy. You provided a lot of feedback on editing and writing and it was all well-intentioned, using the knowledge and experience you’ve gathered. It was great! One could take it negatively, that you were being harsh or overly critical or whatever else. But the person you were talking to, Jeremy, took it all in stride. Did not take anything you said negatively. It was honest feedback, dialogue, even though some points were disagreed on.
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BUT, he says ONE thing you decided to take offense to, and then you turned “hell hath no fury.” –> “August 15, 2020 at 7:34 pm – your advice is all perfectly sound, albeit for someone wanting to get published in the 1990s.” With research he’s done, and his experience, your advice seemed dated. Could he have said it differently/better? Probably. Does that SINGLE line come off as dismissive? That’s fair. But in the end all he was conveying is that with what he knows know, some of your advice didn’t seem applicable. He clearly has been listening to you and talking with you. Just because he’s disagreeing now doesn’t mean all your points are invalid or thrown out.
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But, now review your reply from August 16, 2020 at 10:35 am. Scornful, oozing disdain. “If you can’t get past me,” “don’t piss off the person who might be fucking the boss you want to impress,” to name a couple examples. I hope you can see how full of yourself you are, and how condescending that entire post was. You might be fully justified in feeling that way, but that’s not the point. With a single disagreement (admittedly phrased poorly), you turn simply incredibly mean. Jeremy replied and apologized. Can you?
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With this one example detailed out, this appears to be the general idea people are talking about having witnessed over time. You offer a lot of criticisms and critiques. Not commenting whether it is fair or deserved, it simply is. But heaven forbid if someone says something disagreeable or takes an attitude you don’t like, and you tend to be rather dismissive. Thus, dish it but can’t take it.
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You’ve been asking for examples, so this is my good-faith interpretation of these recent comments plus my own observances. Make of it what you will.
Personally, I believe that Trashtalk is who she says she is, a high-end British escort. I have to admit that I’ve visited escorts from time to time over the years, and there’s enough insider detail and knowledge that it’s convincing.
Not all men, especially successful men in their 60s and 70s, want to spend time with a twenty-something empty-headed bimbo. That quickly gets boring. Intelligent, prominent, recognisable men also want an escort who can be trusted to be highly discreet, and not become a problem to them.
If an escort has that kind of reputation, built up over a couple of decades, she can charge what she likes and certainly won’t lack for clients, whatever her age.
If you read reviews of high-end escorts, you’ll find many men who say something like ‘We had sex, and then we lay in bed and chatted for an hour, and had a good conversation’. Japanese oiran and geisha were traditionally highly educated and trained in art, music, and conversation as well as providing sexual services. Many prominent European courtesans in the 17th – 19th centuries were valued for their intelligence as much or more than their beauty, and continued to be influential and to have sex with men to an advanced age.
Woody Allen said, “Sex without love is an empty experience, but as empty experiences go, it’s one of the best.” Anyone who expects an emotional relationship with an escort is a fool, but sex always has a psychological component – it’s never only physical. An intelligent escort who understands that will always be in demand.
And if you expect any escort not to have an ‘attitude’, you haven’t met many. 🙂
I’m not even listening. You guys are having a fit of the hysterics and I’m not engaging with that.
No one expects you to. You think what you want and don’t make space to listen to others.
You say “I’m not listening” as if it applies only to what’s above, but the truth is this has been your MO for years. You talk and argue, but rarely “listen”. Why change now. Enjoy your island of one.
@GreenWyvern
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You’ve put a very good gloss on things. As for the rest they’re on one. It’s not possible to have a sensible discussion plus they’re still feeling sore over Cringely wanging them for $30,000.
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I’ve been watching more youtubes. I can’t talk about why because it’s “trade secret” but I’ve been looking into haute couture for quite some time. (I had two very high end dresses which I needed to get rid of and I’m still kicking myself over this. Ursula von der Leyen President of the EU Commission has one. The third high end dress I kept I won’t wear for just anyone. It’s by a now deceased designer and 100% silk.) I’m looking into haute couture for one very specific reason. You won’t find this advertised in any of their collections and would have to special order it. It is extremely unlikely to be in the display collection of any museum. You cannot buy what I want in retail and nothing equivalent really comes close. I know some South Koreans including possibly Japanese would know what I’m talking about but nobody in the West has much of a clue. I remember reading some comments some years ago online about the South Koreans going too far. Yes, it’s expensive or a lot of work if you do it yourself but if you want the best you cannot settle for “good enough”. To the best of my knowledge what I am after will be unique and if anyone else does have one they are not saying.
“It’s not possible to have a sensible discussion”. Obvious hypocritical troll is obvious.
@trashtalk
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There have been messages to you more on the aggressive side. For my part, I at least tried to be neutral as can be in providing the examples you asked for. But you dodge responsibility in actually engaging in dialogue by continuing to deny taking part in dialogue, and also continuing to hurl insults yourself. Irrelevant “red herring” insults I might add, considering Cringley’s wanging, and everyone’s justifiable displeasure with said wanging, has nothing to do with any of this… but sure, feel free.
This blog is best enjoyed if you treat it like it’s performance art. In my imagination the main characters are Bob and his alter ego Trashtalk holding court with regular posters and the odd troll. It’s entertaining to say the least. Carry on and Peace be with you.
Anonymous15 November 2020 at 16:13
WikiFReaks – Bulletin
Well one racist has gone heres a list of racists in the British press!
https://b6.icdn.ru/r/rick55555/8/68969098dXu.jpg
trump hasnt qiute gone yet …but yeah.