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	<title>Comments for I, Cringely</title>
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	<link>http://www.cringely.com</link>
	<description>Cringely on technology</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 02:36:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Collaborize, Rinse, Repeat by samantha</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2010/03/collaborize-rinse-repeat/comment-page-2/#comment-184333</link>
		<dc:creator>samantha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 02:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=1576#comment-184333</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;samantha...&lt;/strong&gt;

[...]I, Cringely &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Collaborize, Rinse, Repeat - Cringely on technology[...]...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>samantha&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>[...]I, Cringely &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; Collaborize, Rinse, Repeat &#8211; Cringely on technology[...]&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on What would Sharon do? by Michael Aronoff</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2012/02/what-would-sharon-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184321</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Aronoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 01:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=3697#comment-184321</guid>
		<description>We had most of the same problems you describe your kids having. What I will call &quot;bullying-lite&quot;. Which is hell for the kid on the receiving end but not so bad that any teacher or administrator will do anything about it. It made both my above average kids not want to go to school. My son who has mild ADD was struggling because he could not fit with the way things were paced in High School and my daughter was the victim of horrible peer gossip and behavior. We took them out of their High School (a very well ranked school I might add) and enrolled them in K12. Now i know from doing my reading online that K12 has caught a lot of heat from some of their methods however what I have found is that with an involved parent it is a great program. Both my kids get their school work done at their own pace, have online group lecture class sessions weekly and discussions as well. They also have time free to go to museums and add even more to their education as well. I know it requires at least one stay home parent but I work from home so it is perfect for us. It has removed the BS that dominates so much of their school day in a traditional school setting and replaces it with solid academics. We need to take the initiative to make sure they socialize well but between scouts, after-school drama programs, and sports tons of good socialization is available. Oh and in many school districts in California it is free to enroll your kids in K12 through CAVA (http://www.k12.com/cava). The even send a free PC with a Printer/Scanner if you need it and reimburse for DSL cost. Have a look, it might just change you kids lives for the better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We had most of the same problems you describe your kids having. What I will call &#8220;bullying-lite&#8221;. Which is hell for the kid on the receiving end but not so bad that any teacher or administrator will do anything about it. It made both my above average kids not want to go to school. My son who has mild ADD was struggling because he could not fit with the way things were paced in High School and my daughter was the victim of horrible peer gossip and behavior. We took them out of their High School (a very well ranked school I might add) and enrolled them in K12. Now i know from doing my reading online that K12 has caught a lot of heat from some of their methods however what I have found is that with an involved parent it is a great program. Both my kids get their school work done at their own pace, have online group lecture class sessions weekly and discussions as well. They also have time free to go to museums and add even more to their education as well. I know it requires at least one stay home parent but I work from home so it is perfect for us. It has removed the BS that dominates so much of their school day in a traditional school setting and replaces it with solid academics. We need to take the initiative to make sure they socialize well but between scouts, after-school drama programs, and sports tons of good socialization is available. Oh and in many school districts in California it is free to enroll your kids in K12 through CAVA (<a href="http://www.k12.com/cava" rel="nofollow">http://www.k12.com/cava</a>). The even send a free PC with a Printer/Scanner if you need it and reimburse for DSL cost. Have a look, it might just change you kids lives for the better.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What would Sharon do? by Mark_S</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2012/02/what-would-sharon-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184313</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark_S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 01:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=3697#comment-184313</guid>
		<description>&quot;American schools would be as successful as Finland schools have become if all we needed to teach our children was how to filet a fish.&quot;

Who are you, Gordon Shumway? Do you really live in a world where only Americans are real and the rest of us are just shadowpuppets?

Thank God you&#039;re just the cliche that proves the rule and not the reality of America, or the world would be in big trouble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;American schools would be as successful as Finland schools have become if all we needed to teach our children was how to filet a fish.&#8221;</p>
<p>Who are you, Gordon Shumway? Do you really live in a world where only Americans are real and the rest of us are just shadowpuppets?</p>
<p>Thank God you&#8217;re just the cliche that proves the rule and not the reality of America, or the world would be in big trouble.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What would Sharon do? by John Servais</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2012/02/what-would-sharon-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184310</link>
		<dc:creator>John Servais</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 00:38:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=3697#comment-184310</guid>
		<description>I second the home schooling solution.  Being a pro teacher is about 5th on the list or desired skills.  Being there, one on one, eliminating the social harassment, going on field trips, and many more are the keys.  A kid can start a project and continue as long as their interest is there - not be stopped short by the bell.  That bell is destructive to motivation.  

We had no plans to home school our one and only.  But in the 1st grade he ran into the normal negatives at school - and the twinkle in his eyes started to fade - and he started not wanting to go to school.  We went full action - talked to the school folks - sought alternatives and decided on home school.  My wife quit her job, and we started.  Each year for 7 years he made the decision - home or the formal school - and choose home.  In two hours a day, one on one, you can accomplish as much as they do in 5 or 6 hours of school.  Socially, we discovered many other home schoolers for field trips and common special tutored classes - such as language.  Life was a blast.  My computer consulting allowed me to schedule for many special activities. The kid is now 27 and the owner of his own business.  Robert, check out the stats on home schoolers - and who the famous ones are and what they say about it.  Just outstanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I second the home schooling solution.  Being a pro teacher is about 5th on the list or desired skills.  Being there, one on one, eliminating the social harassment, going on field trips, and many more are the keys.  A kid can start a project and continue as long as their interest is there &#8211; not be stopped short by the bell.  That bell is destructive to motivation.  </p>
<p>We had no plans to home school our one and only.  But in the 1st grade he ran into the normal negatives at school &#8211; and the twinkle in his eyes started to fade &#8211; and he started not wanting to go to school.  We went full action &#8211; talked to the school folks &#8211; sought alternatives and decided on home school.  My wife quit her job, and we started.  Each year for 7 years he made the decision &#8211; home or the formal school &#8211; and choose home.  In two hours a day, one on one, you can accomplish as much as they do in 5 or 6 hours of school.  Socially, we discovered many other home schoolers for field trips and common special tutored classes &#8211; such as language.  Life was a blast.  My computer consulting allowed me to schedule for many special activities. The kid is now 27 and the owner of his own business.  Robert, check out the stats on home schoolers &#8211; and who the famous ones are and what they say about it.  Just outstanding.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What would Sharon do? by paul</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2012/02/what-would-sharon-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184306</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2012 00:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=3697#comment-184306</guid>
		<description>So:

You&#039;re really only interested in how well educated your own 3 sons are (you said).  Fair enough but why then devote a column to it as nobody else is going to be much interested in how well your sons are educated (no offence intended).  No point inciting general education unrest when you just need a quick personal solution!!!

In any case, with a focus on just 3 young people, nobody is going to change the system either for you or in time!!!

Despite your comment (&quot;You could, in theory, turn a Model T into a Ferrari, but sometimes it’s better to start from scratch&quot;), you (and most of your readers) are still fixated on &quot;Teachers&quot;!  Scrap them (=start from scratch).  They are not required in a fit for purpose education paradigm.  Instead of starting with &quot;teachers&quot; so as to build an education model that they fit into, why not do what makes sense, identify one&#039;s education aims and build a model that meets it (in which &quot;teachers&quot; won&#039;t figure, they&#039;re an illogical role)!!!

Problem really is - too many teachers and education &quot;professionals&quot; (school heads, government funders, etc) with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo!  It&#039;s a win(teachers)/lose(students) situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re really only interested in how well educated your own 3 sons are (you said).  Fair enough but why then devote a column to it as nobody else is going to be much interested in how well your sons are educated (no offence intended).  No point inciting general education unrest when you just need a quick personal solution!!!</p>
<p>In any case, with a focus on just 3 young people, nobody is going to change the system either for you or in time!!!</p>
<p>Despite your comment (&#8220;You could, in theory, turn a Model T into a Ferrari, but sometimes it’s better to start from scratch&#8221;), you (and most of your readers) are still fixated on &#8220;Teachers&#8221;!  Scrap them (=start from scratch).  They are not required in a fit for purpose education paradigm.  Instead of starting with &#8220;teachers&#8221; so as to build an education model that they fit into, why not do what makes sense, identify one&#8217;s education aims and build a model that meets it (in which &#8220;teachers&#8221; won&#8217;t figure, they&#8217;re an illogical role)!!!</p>
<p>Problem really is &#8211; too many teachers and education &#8220;professionals&#8221; (school heads, government funders, etc) with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo!  It&#8217;s a win(teachers)/lose(students) situation.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What would Sharon do? by Mark_S</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2012/02/what-would-sharon-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184303</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark_S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=3697#comment-184303</guid>
		<description>Sorry Bob, it occurs to me that I pirated your signal there. I probably should have asked before posting a whole bylined essay in your comments section.

Sorry. Cut-and-pasted before thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Bob, it occurs to me that I pirated your signal there. I probably should have asked before posting a whole bylined essay in your comments section.</p>
<p>Sorry. Cut-and-pasted before thinking.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What would Sharon do? by Mark_S</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2012/02/what-would-sharon-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184301</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark_S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=3697#comment-184301</guid>
		<description>To follow up on my previous post, the educational researcher Robert K. Logan -- who worked closely with Marshall McLuhan in the 70&#039;s -- wrote two books, The Fifth Language and its followup/revision The Sixth Language, where he posits the following:

Humanity has invented six distinct &quot;languages&quot; since the beginning of civilization:

1- Oral language.
2- Written language.
3- Mathematics.
4- Science.
5- Computers.
6- The Internet.

Each &quot;language&quot; is dependent on and springs from the previous one, and cannot emerge independently.

In a nutshell, he says our education system is broken because it tries to teach all of the above, but especially computers and the Internet, as SUBJECTS instead of treating them as the MEDIA through which other concepts flow.

Here&#039;s the link to the Sixth Language on Amazon: http://amzn.to/yRRupE

And here&#039;s my review of the pre-Internet edition, The Fifth Language, as published in the Canadian booktrade magazine Quill &amp; Quire in 1994:

---

The Fifth Language
Reviewed by Mark Shainblum

Originally published in Quill &amp; Quire, December 1994


Writing Archive Home

Website Home 

Anyone who went to high school in the 1970&#039;s had a gut-level awareness that all was not right with the world. Our education seemed weirdly out of tune with reality – not in the prosaic way adult and teenage cultures always differ – but in the everyday nuts-and-bolts sense of how things worked. Our teachers often seemed like emissaries from another culture, well-meaning Peace Corps volunteers unable to fluently speak the lingo or figure out the local customs.

The gut instinct gave way to certain dread when I took a one-year teaching diploma at McGill University in 1991-92. My baby-boomer university professors and my post X students in practice teaching no longer seemed like foreigners; they seemed like aliens. Like residents of different parallel universes with no points of convergence.

And there I was, a Generation X cliché, the lunch meat sandwiched between them. Being Spam has never appealed. I decided high school teaching wasn&#039;t for me, just as someone in the 1890&#039;s might have decided that there was little future in the carriage manufacturing trade.

Robert K. Logan, professor of physics and communications theory at the University of Toronto and the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, may not have put the final nail in the coffin of the traditional teacher/desks/blackboard classroom, but he has certainly purchased the hammer. In his remarkably lucid book The Fifth Language: Learning a Living in the Computer Age, Logan continues the work of Canadian communications pioneer Marshall McLuhan and applies it to the interface of microcomputing and education.

To those not steeped in current communications and educational theory, Logan&#039;s basic contentions are staggering. He views the computer as not simply a tool, not simply a medium, but as an entirely new language form, the fifth after verbal language, the written alphabet, mathematics, and science. This language builds upon and incorporates its predecessors, but is as fundamentally different from them as written language is from spoken, as rational science is from pure mathematics.

Logan contends that the educational system has not yet made the ideological leap that our rapid adoption of this new language requires. We are, he claims in his clean, lucid prose, still trying to educate our children for the 1950&#039;s. Schools as we know them are the educational paradigm of the factory, still spewing specialists and middle managers and clock-watchers into a culture which demands generalists and renaissance thinkers and flexibility.

Logan doesn&#039;t preach evolution, he preaches revolution. The education system, in his view, is simply broken, out of date, out of step not just with the times but the new evolving world culture. Simply plopping a few PC&#039;s into the classroom will not solve the problem because PC&#039;s aren&#039;t simply a tool, they are an utterly new way of seeing the universe. There are as radical a paradigm shift, in their own way, as the introduction of written language or the scientific method.

The Fifth Language is an extremely successful book for several reasons. Logan eschews the convoluted non-linearity of Marshall McLuhan&#039;s Toronto School and explains his contentions in remarkably clear and taut prose. He explains the basic principles of McLuhanesque thought better than any third party I have ever read, and his extensions of Toronto School philosophy into the educational and microcomputer domains are, frankly, brilliant.

No one who has stood at the front of a classroom in the last twenty years has any illusions that the current educational system actually functions. Now, perhaps, with Robert Logan&#039;s help, we can begin to understand why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To follow up on my previous post, the educational researcher Robert K. Logan &#8212; who worked closely with Marshall McLuhan in the 70&#8242;s &#8212; wrote two books, The Fifth Language and its followup/revision The Sixth Language, where he posits the following:</p>
<p>Humanity has invented six distinct &#8220;languages&#8221; since the beginning of civilization:</p>
<p>1- Oral language.<br />
2- Written language.<br />
3- Mathematics.<br />
4- Science.<br />
5- Computers.<br />
6- The Internet.</p>
<p>Each &#8220;language&#8221; is dependent on and springs from the previous one, and cannot emerge independently.</p>
<p>In a nutshell, he says our education system is broken because it tries to teach all of the above, but especially computers and the Internet, as SUBJECTS instead of treating them as the MEDIA through which other concepts flow.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the link to the Sixth Language on Amazon: <a href="http://amzn.to/yRRupE" rel="nofollow">http://amzn.to/yRRupE</a></p>
<p>And here&#8217;s my review of the pre-Internet edition, The Fifth Language, as published in the Canadian booktrade magazine Quill &amp; Quire in 1994:</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>The Fifth Language<br />
Reviewed by Mark Shainblum</p>
<p>Originally published in Quill &amp; Quire, December 1994</p>
<p>Writing Archive Home</p>
<p>Website Home </p>
<p>Anyone who went to high school in the 1970&#8242;s had a gut-level awareness that all was not right with the world. Our education seemed weirdly out of tune with reality – not in the prosaic way adult and teenage cultures always differ – but in the everyday nuts-and-bolts sense of how things worked. Our teachers often seemed like emissaries from another culture, well-meaning Peace Corps volunteers unable to fluently speak the lingo or figure out the local customs.</p>
<p>The gut instinct gave way to certain dread when I took a one-year teaching diploma at McGill University in 1991-92. My baby-boomer university professors and my post X students in practice teaching no longer seemed like foreigners; they seemed like aliens. Like residents of different parallel universes with no points of convergence.</p>
<p>And there I was, a Generation X cliché, the lunch meat sandwiched between them. Being Spam has never appealed. I decided high school teaching wasn&#8217;t for me, just as someone in the 1890&#8242;s might have decided that there was little future in the carriage manufacturing trade.</p>
<p>Robert K. Logan, professor of physics and communications theory at the University of Toronto and the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, may not have put the final nail in the coffin of the traditional teacher/desks/blackboard classroom, but he has certainly purchased the hammer. In his remarkably lucid book The Fifth Language: Learning a Living in the Computer Age, Logan continues the work of Canadian communications pioneer Marshall McLuhan and applies it to the interface of microcomputing and education.</p>
<p>To those not steeped in current communications and educational theory, Logan&#8217;s basic contentions are staggering. He views the computer as not simply a tool, not simply a medium, but as an entirely new language form, the fifth after verbal language, the written alphabet, mathematics, and science. This language builds upon and incorporates its predecessors, but is as fundamentally different from them as written language is from spoken, as rational science is from pure mathematics.</p>
<p>Logan contends that the educational system has not yet made the ideological leap that our rapid adoption of this new language requires. We are, he claims in his clean, lucid prose, still trying to educate our children for the 1950&#8242;s. Schools as we know them are the educational paradigm of the factory, still spewing specialists and middle managers and clock-watchers into a culture which demands generalists and renaissance thinkers and flexibility.</p>
<p>Logan doesn&#8217;t preach evolution, he preaches revolution. The education system, in his view, is simply broken, out of date, out of step not just with the times but the new evolving world culture. Simply plopping a few PC&#8217;s into the classroom will not solve the problem because PC&#8217;s aren&#8217;t simply a tool, they are an utterly new way of seeing the universe. There are as radical a paradigm shift, in their own way, as the introduction of written language or the scientific method.</p>
<p>The Fifth Language is an extremely successful book for several reasons. Logan eschews the convoluted non-linearity of Marshall McLuhan&#8217;s Toronto School and explains his contentions in remarkably clear and taut prose. He explains the basic principles of McLuhanesque thought better than any third party I have ever read, and his extensions of Toronto School philosophy into the educational and microcomputer domains are, frankly, brilliant.</p>
<p>No one who has stood at the front of a classroom in the last twenty years has any illusions that the current educational system actually functions. Now, perhaps, with Robert Logan&#8217;s help, we can begin to understand why.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What would Sharon do? by MAtt</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2012/02/what-would-sharon-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184297</link>
		<dc:creator>MAtt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=3697#comment-184297</guid>
		<description>My dad had a computer lab in his classroom back in the first half of the eighties. He used computers for the next twenty years until he retired, with a fabulous track record of teaching learning disabled sociopaths whom the public schools deemed unteachable.

The moral, of course, is not that computers can save the classroom. It is that computers - or his hand-me-down professional A/V equipment, etc. - used properly by the right teachers can focus the attention of even the most out of control kids. But ultimately what saved his classroom was that he was a former college football player with a reputation for not taking any shit. The kids first respected him, and only then was learning possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My dad had a computer lab in his classroom back in the first half of the eighties. He used computers for the next twenty years until he retired, with a fabulous track record of teaching learning disabled sociopaths whom the public schools deemed unteachable.</p>
<p>The moral, of course, is not that computers can save the classroom. It is that computers &#8211; or his hand-me-down professional A/V equipment, etc. &#8211; used properly by the right teachers can focus the attention of even the most out of control kids. But ultimately what saved his classroom was that he was a former college football player with a reputation for not taking any shit. The kids first respected him, and only then was learning possible.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What would Sharon do? by Gnarfle</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2012/02/what-would-sharon-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184292</link>
		<dc:creator>Gnarfle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=3697#comment-184292</guid>
		<description>John Taylor Gatto argues effectively that school is designed to break the bonds of family life. To prevent you and your children from having that relationship. To train your children to spy on you and fink to the &quot;authorities&quot; under the guise of doing a project for school. To undermine the Constituion and turn you into a &quot;child&quot; of the State.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Taylor Gatto argues effectively that school is designed to break the bonds of family life. To prevent you and your children from having that relationship. To train your children to spy on you and fink to the &#8220;authorities&#8221; under the guise of doing a project for school. To undermine the Constituion and turn you into a &#8220;child&#8221; of the State.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What would Sharon do? by Gnarfle</title>
		<link>http://www.cringely.com/2012/02/what-would-sharon-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184291</link>
		<dc:creator>Gnarfle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 22:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cringely.com/?p=3697#comment-184291</guid>
		<description>Ender&#039;s Game by Orson Scott Card</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ender&#8217;s Game by Orson Scott Card</p>
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