The H-1B visa program was created in 1990 to allow companies to bring skilled technical workers into the USA. It’s a non-immigrant visa and so has nothing at all to do with staying in the USA, becoming a citizen, or starting a business. Big tech employers are constantly lobbying for increases in H-1B quotas citing their inability to find qualified U.S. job applicants. Bill Gates and other leaders from the IT industry have testified about this before Congress. Both major political parties embrace the H-1B program with varying levels of enthusiasm. But Bill Gates is wrong. What he said to Congress may have been right for Microsoft but was wrong for America and can only lead to lower wages, lower employment, and a lower standard of living. This is a bigger deal than people understand: it’s the rebirth of industrial labor relations circa 1920. Our ignorance about the H-1B visa program is being used to unfairly limit wages and steal — yes, steal — jobs from U.S. citizens.
There are a number of common misunderstandings about the H-1B program, the first of which is its size. H-1B quotas are set by Congress and vary from 65,000 to 190,000 per year. While that would seem to limit the impact of the program on a nation of 300+ million, H-1B is way bigger than you think because each visa lasts for three years and can be extended for another three years after that.
At any moment, then, there are about 700,000 H-1B visa holders working in the USA.
Most of these H-1B visa holders work in Information Technology (IT) and most of those come from India. There are about 500,000 IT workers in the USA holding H-1B visas. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, there are about 2.5 million IT workers in America. So approximately 20 percent of the domestic IT workforce isn’t domestic at all, but imported on H-1B visas. Keep this in mind as we move forward.
H-1B is a non-immigrant visa. H-1B holders can work here for 3-6 years but then have to return to their native countries. It’s possible for H-1B’s to convert to a different kind of visa but not commonly done. The most common way, in fact, for converting an H-1B visa into a green card is through marriage to a U.S. citizen.
H-1B isn’t the only way for foreigners to work in America. They can work to some extent on student visas and, in fact, many student visas are eventually converted to H-1B for those who have a job and want to stay but maybe not immigrate.
There is a misconception about the H-1B program that it was designed to allow companies to import workers with unique talents. There has long been a visa program for exactly that purpose. The O (for outstanding) visa program is for importing geniuses and nothing else. Interestingly enough, the O visa program has no quotas. So when Bill Gates complained about not being able to import enough top technical people for Microsoft, he wasn’t talking about geniuses, just normal coders.
I don’t want to pick on just Microsoft here, but I happen to know the company well and have written over the years about its technical recruiting procedures. Microsoft has a rigorous recruitment and vetting process. So does Google, Apple — you name the company. All of these companies will take as many of O visa candidates as they can get, but there just aren’t that many who qualify, which is why quotas aren’t required.
So when Microsoft — or Boeing, for that matter — says a limitation on H-1B visas is keeping them from getting top talent, they don’t mean it in the way that they imply. If a prospective employee is really top talent — the kind of engineer who can truly do things others simply can’t — there isn’t much keeping the company from hiring that person under the O visa program.
H-1B visas are about journeyman techies and nothing else.
Companies can also transfer employees into the country who have worked for at least a year for the company overseas under an L-1 visa. These, too, are limited by quota and the quota is typically lower than for H-1Bs. Back in the late 1980s when the H-1B program was first being considered it was viewed as a preferable short term alternative to L-1. It has since turned into something else far darker.
So has the B visa, which is intended for companies to bring their foreign employees into the U.S. for business meetings and trade shows. You’d be amazed how many such business meetings and trade shows last 30 days as companies use B visas to enable foreign employees to work awhile in the U.S. I’m told that IBM sometimes platoons workers on B visas, sending them to places like Mexico for a short time then bringing them back across the border for another stint.
Tourist visas are also commonly abused even though they specifically prohibit work.
The more interesting question here isn’t which multinational corporations consistently abuse B and tourist visas but which ones don’t, it is so common.
A key argument for H-1B has always been that there’s a shortage of technical talent in U.S. IT. This has been taken as a given by both major political parties. But it’s wrong. Here are six rigorous studies (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) that show there is no shortage of STEM workers in the U.S. nor the likelihood of such a shortage in years to come.
You may recall a recent column here where the IT community in Memphis, TN proved there was no labor shortage in that technology hotbed.
The whole labor shortage argument is total hogwash. Yes, there is a labor shortage at substandard wages.
Can all of this be just about money? Yes.
The rules for H-1B visas state that they must be for technical positions for which there is no comparable U.S. citizen available and the position must pay the prevailing wage or higher.
It’s this definition of prevailing wage where we next see signs of H-1B abuse by employers. The intent of the original law was for companies not to use H-1B workers simply to save money. In the enabling legislation from 1990, however, there are two different definitions of the term “prevailing wage.” The first is quite strict while the second, which is used by self-certifying employers to set actual pay scales, has plenty of wiggle room.
Warning, dense reading ahead!
Here is the initial definition of “prevailing wage” in 8 USC 1182(n)(1)A)
- The employer
(i) is offering and will offer during the period of authorized employment to aliens admitted or provided status as an H–1B nonimmigrant wages that are at least
(ii) the actual wage level paid by the employer to all other individuals with similar experience and qualifications for the specific employment in question, or
(iii) the prevailing wage level for the occupational classification in the area of employment,
And here is the redefinition of “prevailing wage” in 8 USC 1182(p)(4):
(4) Where the Secretary of Labor uses, or makes available to employers, a governmental survey to determine the prevailing wage, such survey shall provide at least 4 levels of wages commensurate with experience, education, and the level of supervision. Where an existing government survey has only 2 levels, 2 intermediate levels may be created by dividing by 3, the difference between the 2 levels offered, adding the quotient thus obtained to the first level and subtracting that quotient from the second level.
Note that section (p) requires that the Department of Labor set up four prevailing wage levels based upon skill but section (n) only requires a prevailing wage for occupation and location. There is no statutory requirement that the employer pick the skill level that matches the employee.
Let’s see this in action. According to Bureau of Labor Statistics data, the mean wage for a programmer in Charlotte, NC is $73,965. But the level 1 prevailing wage is $50,170. Most prevailing wage claims on H-1B applications use the level 1 wage driving down the cost of labor in this instance by nearly a third.
If you were casually reading the statutes, by the way, you would never see this redefinition. That’s because section (p) does not refer to H-1B but rather to section (n) which is referenced by 8 USC 1101(a)(15)(H)(i)(b).
Got that?
But wait there’s more!
It’s not hard to suppose from this information that an influx of H-1B workers representing an average 20 percent of the local technical work force (those 500,000 H-1Bs against a 2.5 million body labor pool) would push down local wages. There’s plenty of anecdotal evidence that it does, too, but most of the more rigorous academic studies don’t show this because there is no easily available data.
What data is available comes from the initial employer applications for H-1B slots These Labor Condition Applications, called LCAs, include employer estimates of prevailing wages. Because there are always more H-1B applications than there are H-1B visas granted, every employer seeking an H-1B may file 3-5 LCAs per slot, each of which can use a different prevailing wage. But when the visa application is approved, it is my understanding that sponsoring companies can choose which LCA they really mean and apply that prevailing wage number to the hire.
Because the visa has already been granted of course they’ll tend to take the lowest prevailing wage number, because that’s the number against which they match the local labor market.
Remember that part of this business of getting H-1Bs is there must not be a U.S. citizen with comparable skills available at the local prevailing wage. If we consider that exercise using the data from Charlotte, above, a company would probably be seeking a programmer expecting $73,965 or above (after all, they are trying to attract talent, right?) but offering $50,170 or below (the multiple LCA trick). No wonder they can’t get a qualified citizen to take the job.
Based solely on approved LCAs, 51 percent of recently granted H-1B visas were in the 25th percentile for pay or below. That’s statistically impossible under the intent of the program.
We have no clear way of knowing what companies actually pay their H-1Bs beyond the LCAs, because that information isn’t typically gathered, but remember that whatever level it is won’t include benefits that can add another 30-40 percent to a U.S. citizen’s wage.
Here is the Government of India touting its H-1Bs as cheaper than U.S. workers, which of course they aren’t by law supposed to be.
I wish this was the extent of abuse, but it isn’t. A 2011 Government Accountability Office (GAO) study found that approximately 21 percent of H-1B visas are simply fraudulent — that the worker is working for a company other than the one that applied for the visa, that the visa holder’s identity has changed, that the worker isn’t qualified for H-1B based on skills or education, or the company isn’t qualified for the H-1B program.
H-1Bs, even though they aren’t citizens or permanent residents, are given Social Security numbers so they can pay taxes on their U.S. income. A study by the Social Security Administration, which is careful to point out that its job doesn’t include immigration monitoring or enforcement, found a number of H-1B anomalies, the most striking of which to me was that seven percent of H-1B employers reported no payments at all to H-1B visa holders. This is no big deal to the SSA because these people qualify for no benefits, but it makes one wonder whether they are under-reporting just Social Security or also to the IRS and why they might do so? Those H-1B employers who do report Social Security income do so at a level that is dramatically lower than one might expect for job classifications that are legally required to pay the “prevailing wage.”
Maybe at this point I should point out that the H-1B visa program is administered by the Department of Homeland Security. Feel better?
One defense of H-1B might be that it raises overall skill levels, but studies show H-1B employees to be consistently less capable than their U.S. citizen counterparts. This data point is especially interesting because it is drawn from the LCA data where applying companies claimed that 56 percent of H-1B applicants were in the lowest skill category and could therefore be paid the least. So at the same time companies are claiming they need the H-1B program to bring in skilled workers, the workers they are bringing in aren’t very skilled at all. Or if they are skilled, then the sponsoring companies are fudging their paperwork to justify paying lower than market wages.
Either truth is damning and the latter is downright illegal.
Here’s where I’ll give a shout-out to the Libertarian contingent reading this column because they’ll tend to say “So what? It’s every man or woman for himself. Employers should be able to do whatever they damned well please while workers can always go elsewhere.”
But it’s against the law.
At this point a longtime reader of this column speaks up:
“I have been a practicing immigration attorney for over 13 years. I have done many H-1B visas and like any other government program it was loaded and is still loaded with abuses… In my opinion, employers who need H-1B Visa workers should have to go through a screening process before they are allowed to submit the application and a bond should be posted if they violate the law.
“For a large multinational corporation to play this game is not new. The reason that they carry on with these activities are for one reason only — control. Control of the employee and uneven bargaining at the end of the day. I have dealt with this with different multinational corporations… and they have, can and will act in the same manner. As always, it takes either an investigation by the USDOJ or massive fines (or both) to redirect bad behavior to federal compliance.”
“Even if I wasn’t at ground zero in this stuff, it would still bother me,” wrote another longtime reader who has spent his entire career in IT. “Our country spent decades learning to treat workers fairly and with respect. The driving force behind unions in the first place was to address serious problems in the workplace. With all this offshoring and H-1B crap, we’ve dumped 100 years of improving society down the drain. Maybe USA workers do cost too much. The problem is we are not fixing the actual problem. As more and more jobs go off shore, the damage to our economy grows. If we would fix the problems the playing field would be more level and USA workers could compete for jobs. These abuses by corporations are not only hurting USA workers, they are hurting our nation.”
Using H-1Bs takes more bodies to do the same work to which must be added all the busywork of noncompliance. Gaming the system is far from effortless. In the end I think the savings to companies is minimal, perhaps even nonexistent, and the signal it sends to students is to study law instead of computer science.

I dunno – I am against abuse of the H1B program, but here in the California central valley, it is very hard to find anyone of quality to come work for state wages of $40 per hour.
If you can’t find anyone at $40/hour, then maybe that isn’t really the prevailing wage, at least for the type of skills you’re asking for. So either pay more, or find a way to do some of the work remotely — and that does not need to be offshore; probably not even out of state. When I considered a position in Mountain View (several years ago), I realized that cost of living differences meant that even doubling my pay would be a step backwards. So could someone from an outlying county come in twice a week? Someone from another state fly in once a month?
You can find people to work remotely here in Florida for around that – but not senior level (if we are talking developers). A good developer on a short term contract starts around $50 an hour and rises based on experience.
I pay my mechanic $60 an hour and he has a GED, so that seems reasonable considering the experience and education that we bring.
I’m not cheap, but I get the job done and I work my ass off. I won’t apologize for that.
People are openly replaced by H1b workers. The only reason they get them cheap and stay over and can’t change job. while we do have abundance of workers but H1b Suits them well. Bottom line.
I read you second sentence. You do have a verb in there. What you’re saying is “The only reason…. suites them well”.
If you would like to speak out against the H-1B visa cap increase, you can now sign a White House petition. Also, write your local representatives and tell them how you feel as one of their constituents!
i see a lot of comments complaining about h1b abuse or lowering pay standards or living standards. but i don’t see anybody who talks about generating more local technical labour force or lowering local pay standards to compete with foreign workers.
today it is a globalized world. if i run a company if i am not able to produce my product at the lowest possible cost my business will fail. another competitor (even a foreign one operating locally) can avail of more advantegeous factors and run a more profitable business than me. so i have to make choices to survive. i would like to help other people, but how would that be possible if i can’t even get my gig going?
i think somebody smart made a pertinent remark : the species which survive are neither the smartest nor the strongest, but those which adapt to changing conditions.
I worked at intel for a time not to long ago at their development location. They hired competent and qualified people, required a PhD for the positions, and paid well. The problem was that the work was not PhD level and most people came to hate it. In the end the H1b’s lost a lot of negotiating power with management and it had an overall negative effect on the work environment for everyone at the site.
and that’s not all. what happens to the work when the H1Bs run out their ticket?
in our company, and I expect in many more, it goes back to India with the tech, until they find somebody even cheaper to do it.
and when it goes over there, it doesn’t get done if a family issue, holiday (of which there are more over there), frequent power outage combined with sludge in the generator diesel tank takes down the center, or if a question arises that needs to be answered by the remaining domestic staff during daytime hours.
how you say American, ahhh, cluster forks?
My company hired an entry level accountant on an H-1b visa.
Who knew there was a shortage of accountants.
And QA. To my mind anyone who can sit still for 8 hours, say with a couple years Junior College can do most manual QA, yet I’ve seen Indians with Masters do it. Really? You need to import Indians for that? And I can back up that some Indians I’ve met have been no great shakes (and others, normal to great). Another thing H1-B kills is the co-op; entry-level work that gives students a foot in the employment door.
hi Danni can you give more details about this.Thanks in advance
I worked in the Silicon Valley and the audit staff from the big 4 was all H-1B. This is the only way the Big 4 could get qualified accountants to work the required 60 to 80 hours per week for 50 to 60k per year (a very minimal wage in the silicon valley with 1 br apt rents starting at 1500.00 per month).
There are thousands of qualified US citizens accountants that the Big 4 could have hired. But they would have to pay a much more substantial wage.
Whatever government department is responsible for enforcing H1B requirements should be forced to do a much better job.
A few notes about visas:
- The L1 visa is a transfer visa, which has no quota but which requires you to have been working for the same companies overseas for at least a year
- Outstanding visas I believe require a PhD. The majority of H1B immigrants have a college degree but cannot meet the O visa.
Yes and no. Yes on the transfer visa but a PhD doesn’t in and of itself establish that an applicant is outstanding. And applicants without PhDs are regularly found to be outstanding based on other measures like patents or published papers. I have several friends who came to the USA on O visas and have no PhD.
I came to the US on a O1 visa with only a junior college degree but excellent work experience/references.
Hi Christian, could you elaborate a bit on what your work experiences/ references were? I would really appreciate it. Thank you.
indeed about PhD’s not necessarily being ‘competent’. Competency is very rare, more so than common sense maybe
Robbie,
you would know about PhDs since you got yours at Stanford right? LOL.
Once a fraudster, always a fraudster. I guess if you can’t cut it in tech, it’s best to WRITE about tech in a subjective manner. Best of luck in your journalism career.
Shera Bechard and “Dorismar” are such Out-standing intellects I can’t imagine what the US skin-peddling industry would do without them, so let’s all celebrate their O visas. (sarcasm off)
When I did tech support at the U… (and, come to think of it, at my gig at NASA), we had PhDs who were not “highly-skilled” in their own fields, and lots of PhD candidates and ABDs who could be “led to water” but they seemed “incapable of drinking”, even when you shoved their muzzles under. Perhaps, to avoid unwarranted bad-mouthing, I should leave open the possibility, the hope, that they were all stretching the envelope of their own sub-specialties at the time we were working with them, and note that there were a lot of others who were great, well-prepared, quick on the up-take, able to apply their knowledge in new ways, learn new tools and approaches, etc.
They need to give out more H1B’s! I’ve had a ton of work fixing software systems at my last three jobs where the employers had previously used them.
This is but one example of how empires slowly crumble as the opportunists peck at it once the empire’s core strengths have withered away.
Just one more data point: H-1B visas are also a hair away from indentured servitude for the workers. They have zero leverage for salary negotiations and such, because the visa program requires continuous employment. As in, not one day unemployed. So it’s nearly impossible to leave a job, to find another sponsor.
Good point. It’s not the workers who are abusing this system but the employers who hire them. Think for a moment about the seven percent of H-1B employees for whom no wages at all are reported. That doesn’t happen at such a high level by accident. Those folks are probably being paid WAY below any prevailing wage. Heck they could be paid minimum wage for all we know. It makes me feel for the workers and also question the quality of their work under such terms.
One of the reasons why they are paid that low is because many companies bring them to re-sell. They do not have jobs for them right away, and sometime they do not do any software development at all. So they bring people in and then put them into other companies as consultants. Often they do it through other third party companies, especially in cases when there are just few authorizes providers.
At the end of the day there is a chain of 2-3 companies between the company where H1b worker works, and the worker himself, and all of them get ther share from the consultant rate. I saw cases when workers would get less than 50% from the rate at their workplace with no other benefits like medical insurance or 401k, etc.
They have 30 days to find another sponsor.
Legally, you have to be on a plane the next day once you are “out of status”. Your overstay may be tolerated for some time, but it also may not be.
I refer to the H1B visas as the “indentured servant” visa. Short, punchy, and makes the point.
Just like adjunct faculty at a university are little better than indentured servants who are told to use the back door and not to sully the pristine university grounds so that the big donors don’t notice.
Beats my attempt at an honest title: cheap, young, pliant foreign labor with flexible ethics.
I really do think that one impetus for flooding the US, UK and European labor markets is to drive down professional standards of ethics, to get more people willing to work on questionable projects, e.g. those which are centered on privacy violation for profit.
But, yes, I get the impression from the few prosecutions and settlement announcements, and project to the probable numbers of incidents that never reach litigation, that there are a lot of guest-workers being squeezed.
Someone mentioned $40/hour pay in California at the same time we’re hearing of average or medians in Sili Valley of $110K or $120K per year. Pffft, averages and medians don’t keep us aware of the spread. There are gifted US citizen software developers, data-base analysts, and sys admins being paid half that or less in California, and even less in the rest of the USA. Most of it is innocent, though, not intentional abuse but people trying to be entrepreneurial on half of a shoe-string, companies of scrabblers banded together, and people who just love the hot-bed start-up environment.
It’s not quite “indentured servitude”. Employees on H1-Bs aren’t allowed to be unemployed, but they are quite free to look for other opportunities while still employed (as long as their current employer doesn’t know about it). Changing companies (as long as the work is in a related field and all the same “prevailing wage” stuff applies), is not hard at all and requires no approvals from the employer who originally sponsored the visa. An H1-B worker could receive a better offer and literally be out the door the next day (the new employer just needs to file some paperwork that says “this person works for us now”). In today’s economy, you’d have to be an absolute moron to quit without having another job offer lined up anyway, regardless of whether you’re a citizen or on a temporary work visa. In this sense, an H1-B worker is no more “indentured” than an American citizen with a mortgage, car payment and a kid in college.
Problem is, most H1-B workers don’t really have the skills to get better employment, particularly the ones who work for outsourcing companies. They’re just not very good (which is part of the reason they’re so cheap). So in practice, they are “indentured”. But there’s no reason that a particularly intrepid employee who works hard to improve his skills wouldn’t be able to get a job that pays average or above-average salary and leave the outsourcing company’s slave wages.
“These abuses by corporations are not only hurting USA workers, they are hurting our nation.”
And the multinationals couldn’t care less. That is why they lobby for laws that give themselves power to sue governments. They’ll take what they can and damn the ones who get in their way. Kind of like the mafia, but in a bigger way.
You got such a bad start that it makes impossible to accept any point you *might* get right. The H1B is a dual-intent visa, meaning that no one is forced to go back after 3-6 years. 6 years is just the maximum amount of time that one can stay on that visa.
I personally know many engineers that got their green cards right after those 6 years, and never were worried that the company would screw them out of it.
I don’t believe we are in disagreement here, though it is clear that the H-1B is a non-immigrant visa. That’s without question. Nor do the primarily Indian employers even want “the outsourcing visa” as they have called it to lead ti immigration since it is the best way to import product and customer experience into groups that can then compete with American companies.
H-1B started out as a guest-work only visa, dual-intent not allowed. Applicants were required to show that they owned property in their country of origin or other, uh, ties to help guarantee that they wouldn’t over-stay but would go back home when their visa expired.
That was quickly ditched and H-1B converted to dual intent.
And in that vein, initial 3 years, one 3-year renewal, and then after that an H-1B can be extended on a year-by-year basis. OTOH, the main reason reported for granting annual extensions — and I’ve seen reports of several years of extension — is that they have a pending green card application.
You do realize however, that in order for the H1B worker to be eligible for a Green Card, someone will have to sponsor him or her? A Green Card is not something that you magically become eligible for or can apply for yourself (DV lottery excepted), it does require sponsorship either by a US citizen (usually a spouse) or a US employer.
So while the H1B might be a dual-intent visa, unless an H1Ber either gets married to a US citizen or their employer sponsors them for a Green Card, they get to leave the country after a maximum of 6 years. Not many employers do sponsor Green Cards (some do) as the company can be on the hook for a substantial amount of time and a substantial amount of money even if you don’t work there any longer.
that’s not true. all indians will negotiate for a green card at the time of employment. it is only a rare few who do not get it. most indian companies which bring in people, will file for green card within the year.
and 6 years is not the limit for a h1b. you can apply for a 7th year extension. i have heard of people being able to extend even beyond that.
As someone who worked at MS, there is another wrinkle that is being missed: The combination of stack-ranking with H1Bs.
MSFT has an “up-or-out” policy that is enforced by stack ranking. 20% of the employees in a division, no matter what, get bad reviews. These people are fired get forced out every year, or risk their careers stagnate with the tarnish of the “bad” review. The review system for programmers is setup so it favors those who increased numbers of deliverable. The competitive nature of the annual review system favors those who over work themselves.
If an H1B employee looses or quits their jobs they have a limited time to find a new sponsor or they have to leave the country. Now imagine that H1B employee is working for a division of MSFT that is competing heavily with another company.
It is not hard to see how the combination of the two systems wrings every bit of productivity out of the H1B employee for fear of deportation.
Thanks. I see a Dilbert cartoon in this…
That up-or-out policy isn’t unique to MSFT or even IT in general. Just sayin’….
Wow shocked by your false statistics.
Let me remind you that in this country are around 12 million illegal immigrants that make this country bleed dry, and your concern is about H1B…. Really?
Let me remind you that bill gates and his h1b employee pay more taxes than you and all your ancestors ever lived in this country combined
Let me remind you that, 47% of businesses on sillicon valley are owned by ex h1b holders.
Im surprised a guy smart like you, that can prove bill gates wrong, its such a looser.
It’s “loser,” Goni.
I would just like to point out that not all the commenters here are native English speakers. This can lead their posts to appear less coherent and formally correct than they otherwise might. Respectful corrections are usually appreciated though, and while this isn’t possible in a comments system, on forums it’s often best to private message such advice rather than call people out publicly.
Reply to Simon Hibbs: I appreciate your concern for non-English speakers and your point however if you are referring to Mr. Cringely’s comment to ‘Goni’ about the word ‘loser’ I would urge you to remember that calling Mr. Cringely a loser publically is not a matter of not understanding the language. Language capability aside, it was clearly meant to belittle Mr. Cringely so his correcting a somewhat ironic mispelling was all too appropriate. To be fair – you should have commented on Goni’s snarky comment as well. I suspect a bias or preconcieved perception of some kind about Mr. Cringely (I have none – this is the first article of his I’ve ever read).
GREAT reply, Robert.
see “boarder” in column
Fixed, thanks.
Sorry, but you really need to learn to spell correctly and punctuate properly. Go back to school.
Are you a troll hamerfan or can you also argue?
I see everyone argues about my grammar. And i dont care about that, read the content , not the errors, dumb people like you cant will never get a job on stem. American idiots
Your brilliant argument is that Bob is a loser?
Goni,I can’t understand your content, the grammar and spelling being so bad.
Goni – with all due respect at some point grammar DOES have an impact on a person’s ability to understand content or- when it is so far off the mark – can put the content under doubt. This is because people (of all nationalities) often feel – with some justification – that if a speaker/writer has not taken the time to check the basic grammar of their communication then perhaps the content is shaky as well. Finally – can you not see how calling people losers and dumb undermines any credibility you or your content may have. It makes you appear arrogant, angry and not worthy of taking seriously.
What Bill said.
Goni is what we call a slumdog. He is the kind of trash that is invading this country (ab)using H1B visas attained using falsified paperwork (they buy fake IT degrees in india, when they actually are dumb as dirt). And american business eats it up, because they are money grubbing satanists. America is finished, gone the way of the roman empire and (soon) nazi germany. America used to stand for something, now it stands for Money, and ONLY Money. Americans think they are free, but they are actually slaves to Money. Money is more important than people in the US. This will soon change when China says ‘enough’ and sells its US-dollar assets, making your Allmighty Dollar worthless virtually overnight. No more world-destroying SUVs, no more super-sized burgers, no more waste-as-much-as-you can gluttony and waste, no more america. ….and the world will be a better place. The fat, ignorant, gluttonous monster destroying our planet will be no more. …then we get to have to deal with China, the new america.
Goni, do you have some links to back up your comments? Otherwise it just sounds like you’re an (perhaps ex) H1-Ber that is offended.
Cringely is not saying the illegals shouldn’t be deported. They are a serious drag on the low skill labor (perhaps even skilled blue collar) that the H1-B folks are to the white collar workforce. Both are serious issues that affect our economy and need dealt with. Sorry to all that it may offend, but I’m in the camp that would deport all the illegal aliens and eliminate 85% of H1-B folks. Yes, my ancestors were immigrants… but they were legal ones.
Based on your content (and ignoring the grammar),
(1) Illegal immigrants are irrelevant to this argument
(2) Bill Gates pays more in taxes than me and and my ancestors because his earnings are greater than me and and my ancestors – how much of those earnings result from abusing H1Bs?
(3) Ex H1Bers who start businesses in Silicon Valley (or elsewhere) don’t change the fact that companies are abusing the system and harming the American labor force.
Finally, facts and statistics that contradict your beliefs are not “false,” they are “inconvenient.”
Hope that helps.
I don’t care about grammar! but that’s good point. I’m H1B visa holder. Based my own experience, %90 percent of grad students in the top notch school like UC Berkeley are internationals and they ace in all course works as well as their duties as a RA in comparison with local students. I’m sure Microsoft and other giant companies recruit talented students and its very hard to get into and stay in these companies. Let’s compare our oral abilities with each other, I can speak and write in English, Spanish, French, and my mother tongue Persian! I know 3 common languages and am able to represent my company in many countries. How many languages do u know? Definitely, every company wants to hire me because I have more abilities than you. Remember, Most of faculties in US universities in STEM programs are Indian, Chinese, and Iranians. Universities are back bone of US industry. While young local students don’t show interest in higher education, their sit will be filled by “imported” students. WAKE UP PLEASE, World is changing
sit=seat
You’re joking right? Your written competence is risible at best- I can’t even imagine what your verbal competence is like. What a Farsi.
(Don’t take this too personally, I primarily made this for the pun. But seriously, read Bill’s point to Goni above about spelling and grammar.)
Take a chill pill Goni. Obviously, Cringely’s article hit a nerve.
Bob is spot on, and its sad that this issue doesn’t have more political visiblity. In the last few years I’ve hired dozens of programmers+DBAs+testers after receving many hundreds (thousands?) of resumes. These days the vast majority of resumes I read are from H1Bs and other non-citizens, filtered for me by the HR department primarily on low wages.
The other scam I often see reading resumes is recent graduates from public universities who are non-citizens already with the same degree from their native country. Our public university seats are a scarce valuable resource that is being sold out. For every non-citizen student, a citizen is denied the opportunity to graduate with a degree. And non-citizens who already have foreign degrees easily dominate the top academic rankings, unfairly competing with citizen students.
Yes Mommy, the reason I got a low grade in painting is that some of my fellow Kindergarteners already went through Kindergarten in India.
There are two sides to it. Being a German, I worked in Silicon Valley from 1997-2002 for two startups. I was treated well, competitive pay (6 figure salary after the first years), moved into a management position and eventually got a greencard. Nevertheless, I returned my greencard and moved back.
A lot of the problems you describe could be solved if the H1B holders would be able to change employers more easily after a year or so.
Why did you return to Germany? Did you have problems with your employer in the end and wished to switch to another company?
I absolutely had no problem. I already had my greencard and could have changed employers to my liking. The last sentence in my previous post was related to the fact that if H1B’s were transferable, H1B workers would not be forced to stay at sweat shops and this “business model” would die off.
Regarding myself, I just felt that after 5 years, I had to decide whether I wanted to stay in the U.S. for good or not. People were always very nice and friendly to me and I always felt welcome. But being in tech and in the Bay Area is also like being in a kind of pressure cooker. 10 days of vacation (spent to visit parents and old friends over Xmas), lots of overtime, layoffs, bad life-work balance.
Now, with my 30 days of vacation, office within walking distance, and sane working hours, the only thing I miss are the California sun and the ocean.
I too lived in the USA with a green card – but moved back to the UK 30 years ago.
Not everyone wants’ or needs’ to live in the USA.
I am an ex-H1B holder. The visa is no fun for the holders either as they are basically indentured to the company and the competency (real or manufactured) of its legal team.
There is an easy solution to both problems: make H1-Bs transferable to other companies –limit them to same region or industry if you will to make it closer to the intent of the law. That will give the immigrants some much needed leverage and it will also quickly a) ratchet up the salary due to free-er market competition, b) make the H1-B program much less attractive to slave-shops.
Unlike the L or B visas, I see no rationale for the H class to be bound to a specific employer.
Why make it easier for the H1B Holder? The intent is to first draw from the non-immigrant workforce. The real, final state, should be fewer H1Bs less graft and more hiring of citizen IT workers.
It would force companies to compete to retain H1-b talent, reducing the cost savings.
Making it “easier” for H1B visa holders means that companies can’t use their disadvantaged position to illegally extract concessions, which means that they can’t use those illegaly coerced H1Bs to illegaly lower wages.
Make sense?
H-1B holders displace so many US workers. Our country does not need 2 million new foreign workers every year (roughly 1 million illegal, 1 million legal), especially when the unemployment in the US is so high, especially in IT. the solution is to go back to the intent of the H-1B law, and limit its use to highly specialized skills that Americans cannot be found for. Heck, there is not even a requirement to first consider Americans for any job. It is the abuse of this intent that is the sticking point.
H1B visas ARE transferable. If you are on H visa you could look out for another job and change to other employer who is willing to sponsor it for you. I don’t understand why people are saying that H visas are non transferable. If the pay rate is not as per your liking you can always lookout for an employer who would pay you according to your expectations, provided you are skilled enough and match up to their expectations. There are many H workers earning 6 figure salaries. There are many H workers who are ambitious and want to match up to the standards set up by their American counterparts.
H1B’s are just another classification of employees ‘under the thumb’.
Combined with other employees who have limited mobility due to health insurance, debt etc. it seriously affects a company’s ability to innovate.
Similar story as Tom’s: from Germany, worked in Silivon Valley for 4 years on H1B (first Apple, then a startup, Livescribe), moved back. Also had a green card I gave up, though that was earlier.
I was treated well, though treatment of employees in the US is generally not up to German (or even UK) standards. We have much, much tougher labor laws (and much more vacation time!!) in Europe in general, and in Germany in particular.
Pay was always at the top range of what others in similar positions were making, same for the offer Google made me as I was in the process of moving back. In fact, at the Stanford EE380 on guy was going on a misinformed xenophobic rant about H1Bs very similar to yours. I confronted him afterwards and he informed me that I couldn’t be making more than $X…which was factor 3 too low. He kind of shut up after that.
I know quite a few people at these and other companies that were also on H1Bs, and I don’t know a single one whose experience even approaches your wild fantasies, apparently extrapolated from the practices of one particular bodyshop.
The problem isn’t H1Bs, the problem is bodyshops. The problem isn’t IT outsourcing to other countries or individuals from other countries, the problem is IT outsourcing. The problem isn’t IT, the problem is IBM.
Apple makes $1.7M per employee. Wether that employee costs $30K more or less is completely irrelevant to them. They care wether the person produces the type of value they are looking for.
Silivon Valley *is* talent limited. Where *talent* is a small fraction of the “IT workforce”. And the fact that there are syadmins that IBM is screwing doesn’t help, these are not the same people. A friend who’s a professor at USF once showed me the graduate and undergraduate programs. I was shocked at how few people there were, and Americans were almost completely absent.
I asked how this could be, and the answer was that parents very actively steer their children away from engineering degrees into something “respectable” like business or law. And they are right, at least practically speaking.
With a few exceptions, engineering does not count for anything in the US. Know-nothing MBAs and law-degrees control most of the economy, starting incidentally with the auto-industry, whose decline and fall can be traced very clearly to the decline of engineering within those companies.
So I think that part of your analysis, the one about a company behaving like a law firm, is actuall spot on. Treating engineering talent not like talent but like a mass of undifferentiated “resource” has nothing to do with H1Bs and “those damned forrreiners…”, and has everything to do with a business culture that is driven by MBAs and lawyers, a business culture that is ruining one industry after another in the US.
I agree that the H1B is deeply flawed though. Although the companies I worked for didn’t take advantage of it, the indentured servitude aspects of the program are deeply troubling both on principle and in practice. I always had a side-business selling software: illegal under the H1B, so couldn’t do it, and also no chance to slowly grow that side- into a main-business. I wanted to write a book: couldn’t do it while on H1B.
However, what’s troubling is that the limitations of the program are exactly the sorts of things politicians do to pander to xeonophobic sentiments like the ones you have been expressing: “foreigner == evil and criminal job stealer” So by focusing on the wrong issue, you are not only missing the point, but actually playing into the hands of those who are creating these problems.
I find your comments very insightful.
This statement makes a very strong point:
“a business culture that is driven by MBAs and lawyers, a business culture that is ruining one industry after another in the US.”
I’d be very interested to see stats on the number of green cards that were abandoned over the last 12 years compared with previous decades. I wonder how surprised I’d be…
Green card holders must pay US taxes, no matter where they live.
Yes, and this is fairly insane. Fortunately, there are double taxation agreements, so you don’t (usually) pay double. But you still have to file twice and that’s a huge hassle and there’s good chances of bad things happening.
Which is why my family returned their green cards after leaving the US back in the 80ies. (First time). Since then, it’s only gotten worse, for example the “expatriation tax”, where you get taxed on *unrealized* gains, for example a house that you can’t actually sell that is estimated by the tax authorities to have gained value. Should really call it an expropriation tax.
Essentially, anything foreign is treated by the US tax code as guilty unless proven innocent, and most often even if proven innocent.
Which of course only matters if you actually obey laws, so no problem for IBM et al.
Good comment. I graduated from electronic engineering some 30 years ago now.
The electronic engineering program was cancelled due to lack of interest which was due to students finding out that they really had to work. It was hard to find a job with a good wage and that the work was not as easy as a stock broker.
From what I hear, basket weaving has a soild future.
No, Marcel. Americans are almost completely absent from such education programs like engineering and IT because students saw what happened to their parents and plan for careers where they can be employed at graduation. They do not want to spend years and pay many thousands to end up without a job because the discipline is offshored or companies prefer cheap foreign imports under the H-1B program. The H-1B program’s jobs will never become equal (market) pay (like for legal residents) because companies want to keep the cheap indentured labor, and companies control Congress and laws. You know what happens to H-1Bs who get a green card? Many end up like legal residents and Americans without a job and complain about the H-1B visa.
Hi Netmouser,
not sure why you preface a post where you seem to agree violently with what I am saying with “No, Marcel”.
While what Bunny wrote is part of the problem, the bigger part is, as I wrote, that avoiding a STEM career is a rational choice, because quality engineering work is not valued in the US, what I referred to as the MBA/lawyer (+finance!) driven business culture that is ruining one US industry after the other, extracting rents without any benefit to society and taking repeated stabs at killing the entire economy in one fell swoop.
I am really stunned by the blinders here, the focus on the “evil foreigner” as the root cause of all problems. Of course, given my country’s history, I shouldn’t be, I guess it’s all too human to try and identify the foreigner as the cause of your problems (…and it still happens here today, though it is fortunately not tolerated).
Just read or re-read Bob’s previous article, the one about IBM screwing sysadmins. IBM doesn’t need “evil foreigners” to screw tech workers. At all. In mathematical terms, presence of H1Bs is neither a necessary nor sufficient pre-condition for these problems, and removing them from the equation won’t fundamentally alter what’s going on.
“In mathematical terms, presence of H1Bs is neither a necessary nor sufficient pre-condition for these problems, and removing them from the equation won’t fundamentally alter what’s going on.”
Gas (petrol) stations are neither a necessary nor sufficient pre-condition for automobiles, but removing the stations would certainly alter how often private automobiles are driven.
Cheap indentured labor is an exploitable resource; not legally, but in practice. That drives a competitive race to the bottom. Simply enforcing the competitive pay provisions would restore the market to one in which honest employers were not disadvantaged. Removing the indentured aspects would be a step in that direction.
Why are people getting law der instead of eng. Or it? Because of money. You can make a partner in a law fir within 2 years and make upwards of 200k. Most everyone I know in it is making under 100k vwith considerable experience. There is no managerial track for good teks cus if ur good they don’t want to loose you imho. I’ve been in it with a bs deg. Since 05, I certanly wish I studied law now.
I can say this for sure, in my market admins are treated like garbage. Constant oncall, threats of firing, wage reductions, unpaied ot, excessivly long hours, etc. This isn’t just at ibm, but all companies that I have worked for. I can tell u this for sure, it sucks. Id rather work at wallmart than work it ever again. I would encorage anyone to avoid it at any cost. I can’t overstate this enough.
You can’t make partner at any decent-sized firm in two years. If you made partner within seven years, you would be overachieving. The only exceptions would be if you had a personal connection to a large client.
My neighbor made partner in his lawfirm within 2 years is where I got my assumption. Even considering, lets say 10 years, can you make over 200k in IT after 10 years? I dont know any tec that is making 200 k period, anywhere, not even lead developers. So why invest in an IT eduction, or anything where you are not gonna get payed? why not be a lawyer?
Jamie, IT vs Law might not be fair comparison, both industry have capability to pay good salary. I know Apple is paying 200+ to fresh college graduate and He is now on H1B.
I support removal of H1b program or send Indians back to there country.
Reason being , there are a lots of patents and innovations are happening by them in US. They should go back and do the innovation there and help there country’s economy. US is already developed country.
So I think there’s a real shortage of people such as yourself, Jamie. You seem to have the know-how, guts, stamina, drive, endurance, energy, force, fortitude, grit, guts (did I say guts?), gutsiness, heart, indefatigability, intestinal fortitude, legs, lustiness, moxie, power, power of endurance (not just endurance), resilience, resistance, starch, staying power, tolerance, toleration, vim, vitality, zip and just plain ol’ rootin’ tootin’ firepower my firm needs to tackle this big case we have here at Billerton Law. You just give me a call and we’ll get you set up with your own company car and a private jet. I can be reached at 303-KL5-1212 anytime, day or night. Here’s to you! Here’s to *success*!
Great comment and absolutely on target for the Bay Area, but most H-1Bs aren’t in the Bay Area and seven of the top 10 H-1B employers are those body shops you correctly decry.
Bob,
so why the focus on H1Bs if you know that they aren’t the problem?
Marcel
The MBA/lawyer aspect is part of it, but as my younger cousins have grown up I’ve steered them away from engineering and the sciences because in my experience there’s not much of a future in the U.S. for it. It’s a shame, really, but when people I’ve known have been underemployed or not employed in anything resembling an engineering field for well over a decade, you start to wonder why you should bother.
It’s just like hearing about teachers and how there’s a this shortage of science and math teachers. No, there isn’t a shortage of teachers, but a shortage of teachers accepting wages at $20k a year. You never hear about shortages of teachers when taxpayers are demanding that schools cut teacher salaries, because to a taxpayer cheaper is better, and school districts always overpay their staff, right? After all, the nuns worked for free….
Currently, in the US, the public education system is 3-5x higher cost than comparable 1st world countries. We fail miserably with math and science.
It’s not about the teachers, it’s about the student outcomes, and those have been severely deficient.
I am writing this as a high school drop out, that obtained a GED during my sophomore year, and that currently makes over 2x the median income for the area I live in.
IBM is far from the worst abuser. Silicon Valley may well have a tight enough labor market that many have your experience, but isn’t typical.
If you exclude University professors, every H1-B I’ve gotten to know well enough to judge has been severely underpaid for the job. (Though not always for the performance, in cases where a dozen or more were rented out at once, and neither the renter nor the official employer had any incentive to care which of the twelve were competent.) And every one of them has looked forward to (or at least wished for) NOT being indentured to their current employer, either by returning to India with US experience under their belt, or by getting around the indentured portion of their current visa.
heh, you haven’t visited IBM Boulder. I’d say there are at least 500 there alone.
I did an internship in the States in 99. The visa I got for this was a J visa, which is actually a good invention: It’s an “exchange visa”, meaning the US allows a certain number of people to work there, and in exchange a certain number of US citizens are allowed to work in other countries.
Then again, some countries are more attractive to employees than others. But that will always be the case. If visas start killing jobs then something’s gone terribly wrong (and possibly a Bain consultant won’t improve on that situation if he were to become president of the US).
There should be no immigration quotas, and consequently there should be no such thing as in illegal immigrant. These people could then become productive members of society and pay taxes, and we wouldn’t have to waste police time and money hunting them down.
What about national sovereignty? Have you ever lived in a nation at war?
Do you live in a country that was ever at war?
Do the members of society in your country live up to the social contract that is particular to your nation? Does society in that country and nation have obligations in that social contract to it’s participants?
Do you believe that there is some past wealth generated in your nation that allows for the current generation of wealth?
Does your nation have any level of social welfare? Is the world responsible for that funding or just the people that live in that nation? Would you have your nation open opportunity to all in the world, and all it’s social welfare benefits as well, without reciprocity for the native citizens that have made this opportunity possible?
I think we as nation have invited ingrates into our home.
Vikram and Goni are a great example.
My ancestors paid a great price to save the world, but escaped with their lives. For a time afterwards one paid a 90% income tax rate.
I am fortunate, but I do not believe my country owes the people of the world an opportunity. I do believe it owes “something” to it’s citizens. I also believe that any greed, including companies, individuals, and state institutions, can kill the proverbial “Golden Goose.”
just so you know… when i work on US, i pay more taxes that you can even imagine, i’m not granted to any welfare or benefits. People that are under H1B work their ass hard to get something… they don’t sit down all day long and get high, and blame at government and immigrants that economy is doing bad. but to bad people like you, are blinded and hate everyone whois name is not john or bill.
And yes of course i get pissed when i see to many dumb Americans that take everything for granted.
Work your ass hard and achieve something, instead of bitching at immigrants
Great post Goni!
Did you get some unemployed American IT worker to spell check and grammar check it before you pressed “Submit”?
They can always use another taxi driver in New York.
Reminds of one of my favorite Newsweek (RIP) cartoons:
A WASP-y looking guy standing next to what appears to be a Mexican family. The guy is shouting at the top of his lungs (face all aggravated, veins bursting): “IT IS TIME TO RECLAIM AMERICA FROM THE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!!!!”
At the far right of the picture is a Native American: “I’ll help you pack”
[...] Link. Another thing voters are too tired to think about. by jgordon on October 24, 2012 • Permalink Posted in share Tagged pinboard [...]
Bob, very nice article! I work in the Midwest and the infusion of H1B workers is huge. Not only are wages in the Midwest much lower than the coasts, but so is the general cost of living. Consulting billing rates (not what consultants are paid) can be as low as the 40′s. How can a single income family compete with such low wages? A union janitor can earn more than a skilled IT worker (in some cases).
You also fail to mention many of these H1B workers send a good portion of their earning to their families back home. So they don’t fully contribute to the local economy. Wages earned in the USA end up supporting the India communities. So this end up being a double wammey.
These H1B workers are fucking up the system and making it much harder on the families of U.S. citizens. I am happy you are bringing out this dirty secret of the IT industry.
Why is it always so much easier to scapegoat the people who are being exploited (if that is the case), rather than blaming the companies that are actually breaking the law and screwing both sides?
As to H1Bs not contributing: as an H1B you pay full taxes, social security and unemployment insurance. By law, you can never collect on any of that, because you have to leave the country if you lose your job.
Same complaint as the illegals. The truth is, the H-1Bs I met – and many – live in groups in cheap apartments and receive a subsistence allowance to live on, receiving low pay back in their home country. Not paying the taxes we pay nor getting the same benefits.
So whatever company is doing that is *breaking the law*.
Once again: as an H1B, you are a tax-resident in the US, and pay the same taxes as anyone else. Except, as I pointed out earlier, you are by law prevented from actually receiving many of the benefits you are paying for.
Haven’t read the article yet (I’m sure it’s excellent as always), because I’m still laughing at the picture of Bill Gates at the top. It’s probably the 3rd grade boy in me, but I can’t help hearing “rude noises” whenever I look at it…
You are wrong when you say this has nothing to do with immigration. Pretty much all the H!B visa holders I know have either gotten green cards or are applying. No marriages to US citizens involved.
Indeed, they typically prefer to get married before they get their green card, so their spouse can come here quickly.
Part fantasy. There are not enough employment based green cards to equal the number of H-1Bs hoping for one. The annual quota for professional, skilled worker, and other worker is 41,455 with a 6 year backlog.
Not true. Check the visa builletin. All categories are current for all countries except India and Philippines.
I’m looking at employment based visas: EB-3 Skilled workers, professionals, and other workers at the following link. Wiki seems to keep pretty up-to-date. What is your source for quotas and backlog?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_residence_(United_States)
Right, I found a copy, and the bulletin does break out the backlog. But the number of available work-related visas (green cards) is way less than the number of H-1Bs. One of the problems with the indentured servant nature of H-1Bs is that they are under the impression they will “win” a green card at the end of the road of low pay and obedience. But there are not enough green cards to go around.
And a study published last year by Stuart Anderson said even increasing the number of green cards to – “eliminate the employment-based third preference (EB-3) backlog” would “potentially make the category current within 10 years.”
So the backlog remains meaningful and at best satisfying the demand is 10 years away. Doubtful.
The H1-B program is used extensively in the management consulting industry for non-technical labor.
Firms routinely sponsor green cards for employees who’s H1-B renewal is expiring, so it’s a red herring that it is not an immigrant visa.
Additionally, while the H1-B quota belongs to the company, giving the company the right to revoke the H1-B status of an employee who leaves, not challenging H1-B’s is a ‘perk’ of the consulting industry. Consultants routinely leave the service industry to take corporate roles, bringing their H1-B visas with them, and are required only to supply a letter of employment from the new employer to transfer the visa.
This is the best quote of the article:
“Maybe at this point I should point out that the H-1B visa program is administered by the Department of Homeland Security. Feel better?”
This article is 100% dead on. I have been in this field for 25 years and started out what was at that time this country’s most prestigious research facility. That being said its all gone today. H1Bs are all about cheap labor and driving down wages. Sure there is the occasional anomaly where that isnt so like the German national saying how its not true. Those of us in field know the truth though – its always about the $. The IT space today is totally dominated by the H1B. Go into any good sized company and go into the IT department and let me know what you see? I would put money on it that you see mostly young, foreign, male nationals on H1B. Based on my experiences with theme I would hardly say these people are the “best and brightest”. The media and corporations would love you to believe how did we ever get along without these people.
I will tell you – they used to hire Americans. Not anymore. That is why just about every company you go to is H1B land now. I work in a large pharma as a contractor and I am only one of 17 Americans and there are 168 H1Bs. So what happened to all the other Americans. They have been shown the door, thats what. Laid off, had to train their replacement and than shown the door.
I can also tell you this, when the first H1Bs arrived they told us all that we have to move up the value chain to being architects, PMs, BAs, etc… Well guess what? The H1Bs have moved up the value chain as well. I regularly encounter H1B PMs, architects and more. Whats more is they now own space. Good luck getting hired.
There is NOTHING that says America has to have an open door policy of providing jobs for foreign nationals when there is high unemployment in this country. Further more I would say that anyone that believes this is a traitor to this country.
People have forgotten the past and why unions where originally formed. Go read your history books and read what corporations will do when there is no counterweight to them where they can do whatever they want to the population.
And as kids see what happened to their parents, they no longer choose to spend many years and thousands of dollars with big student loans on the IT and engineering programs in college, but instead choose a career where they will likely get a job on graduation. This is a highly serious security, as well as economic, issue for our country’s future.
You are so right. My last client position for IBM, the team management level on-site was from IBM India, and the development team was in IBM India. Training was for new SAP applications, but I could not get approval for inclusion which was mainly for the foreign workers. That level of Americans there were part of IBM’s layoffs. Rumor was that project management was next to be staffed by foreigners. Executives from a prior contract were now at other company headquarters helping them transition to do the same – move their IT teams to foreigners.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This has been going on for so many years. The difference is the wage and not the qualifications. I constantly see contract positions filled by H1Bs at crazy low rates where another US candidate with better qualifications will be turned down. I know because I’ve been involved with the contract hiring process for many years. Many times the US candidate isn’t even interviewed because their rate is higher than a H1Bs rate. What happens? The US candidate is unemployed or is forced to reduce their rate.
Very nice summary of H1B visas and how employers are chasing cheap labor and nothing else.
Of course it also just makes me sad that this is what our country has come to. Another generation has to awaken to fight the same old fights again.
Who in their right mind would go into IT today? For what to compete with foreigners on visas in your own country for work? Are you kidding me? I want to see another industrialized country thats selling out its middle class on the alter of globalization.
Does everyone remember them saying in the 80s and 90s that these jobs were the future of America? That if you were a computer person you would be employed for the rest of your life. Times have sure changed havent they?
They keep whining that there is a shortage of IT people. My question is where is there a shortage?
Lets think about this in simple economics – the law of supply and demand which dictates if something is in high demand it commands higher prices, if its in lower demand it commands lower prices. This is all the free market wisdom that is constantly shove down everyone’s throat.
So if there is a shortage than where is the money? I am not seeing it because IT salaries have been stagnant since the dot com and in fact have declined if you factor in inflation. We make less now than 10 years ago.
So lets think about this – how can salaries possibly be lower if there is such a “shortage”???
I will tell you how – there is no shortage. The H1Bs have GLUTTED the IT job market. Companies regularly receive 100+ resumes for ANY IT job that is posted. The bodyshops shovel in as many resumes as they will let them submit.
And its not just the H1Bs there is a plethora of other visas that are being used ILLEGALLY by companies so they can bring in even more people. Realize these people are the equivalent of scabs that are used to break the backs of the unions back in the day only they are being used to break the backs of the middle class.
Welcome to the future. Get a backbone because in the future any white collar job that can be offshored or done by foreigners on visas YOU will be replaced.
Bob: I love your column and your insights… However, your outright denunciation of H1Bs has my dander up… I came to the US 10 years ago, brought in from Canada on a TN then H1B VISA to head up a new department at a US company. I was (and hopefully still am) considered skilled, and was paid a very competitive (& prevailing) wage, at par with my peers. My department did well, and we eventually directly employed 35 people, with about 70 people employed in other parts of the business because of what my group built. Since then, I’ve gone on to a green card, and founded a startup now employing 30 people – all US citizens!
My point is that there appear to be abusers of the system, and they should be dealt with very harshly. However, we must be very careful not to destroy or undermine the original intent – to enable the import of great talent that can hep build and grow our economy. America was founded by immigrants and built by immigrants and their descendants. Anyone doing anything illegal should be punished. But lets not close the doors entirely and become totally xenophobic.
I don’t denounce the H-1B program, I denounce how it is managed. Any visa program where 21 percent of participants are found to hold their papers fraudulently is being mismanaged. As I described, H-1B is being gamed by employers. That could easily be stopped in any number of ways. But unless someone like me speaks up it won’t happen.
How would YOU suggest the program be improved?
Personally, I believe that the mis-management you identify is a symptom of the larger problem you are identifying – that larger companies have no regards for the law, and between massive litigation departments and political contributions, they have little to no fear of reprisal or discipline.
Get rid of H1B, or any other such program, and the IBMs of the world will figure out something else and still have the same results. It is just the smaller “honest” (or at least more honest and fearful) companies and the US economy that will suffer.
The only solution is politicians and prosecutors with balls. Shut down IBM. Send a message. That will help for a while. But really, would big corporate America really fall in line for long? Look how long the banks lay low after the financial crisis.
Hi Robert,
the problems you cite are not primarily a problem of the H1B program, so they cannot be addressed by making changes to the H1B program.
The problem is outsourcing and the mentality that lies behind it, viewing engineering purely as a cost center rather than as value-creation. I am not sure that anything will fix this apart from failure, as the incentives for those in charge are just too strong. However, I do see some hopeful signs:
“GM’s outsourced IT model was expensive, inefficient, and outmoded,” CEO Daniel Akerson said on a third-quarter earnings call with investors last week. “Now all of that is changing, and it’s going to help us manage the business with even more speed and precision.”
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/506746/with-computerized-cars-ahead-gm-puts-it-outsourcing-in-the-rearview-mirror/
That said, the changes those with some actual experience with the program have made would help, particularly removing the tie to a particular employer. That would make the illegal abuses by companies like IBM more difficult, thought obviously not impossible.
Wow, how many emotions and how little facts! I can’t believe you published an article like this, Bob. Get your facts straight.
1. How many are there H1B holders nowadays? In one place you say 700K, two sentences later you say its 500K. Make up your mind!
2. The 190K a year figure was for FY01, 02, and 03. Since then it has scaled back to 65K. So it’s safe to assume that there are no more than 390K people in H1B status at any given moment in the country. That’s 14%, not 20%.
3. H1B visa leads to employment-based greencard. No need to marry. This is the simplest and safest way to import high-skilled workers into the country and giving that US is the nation of immigrants, it’s strange to see attempts to reverse that. The Diversity visa (aka lottery) has 55K quota — and yet nobody cries about people entering the States through that process!
4. Applying for a greencard is hard enough by itself and only slightly helped with H1B process. China, India and Philippines have to wait years and years to get their GC approves and while they waiting, they stay in some sort of limbo between H1B and GC. There was another funny thing happened couple years ago with MS. When Microsoft fired 5K people and at the same time applied for many GCs for employees, USCIS said: “what’s the hell? you’re firing people and importing them at the same time? no way!” and rejected all GC applications. As result, Microsoft is much less inclined to fire anyone ))) This wouldn’t be possible under any Republican administration, only Obama has the guts to say “no” to a multi-national corporation.
5. L1 visas have no caps! And they are worse than H1B for everyone: employee can’t leave the company (H1Bs are freely transferable) and he’s receiving minimum wage to live. They are much worse. I don’t know why it’s not used much. I have no idea why IBM even bothers with H1Bs since they move employees around. More logical would be to use L1s. Or maybe you just don’t know much about what visas they really use.
6. Speaking of offshoring: MS used to have a research center in Surrey, BC, just near the border, for those who can’t get H1Bs for US. Do you really think it’s the better way? Companies don’t like being told what to do — if they won’t hire good qualified people here, they just open another research facility in Shanghai and Hyderabad. It’s that easy. Who will win from that? Romney did that all the time and moved many of his companies abroad. Ask him.
7. If you’re worried about shortage of work, go to Silicon valley. This year it’s crazy there. Salaries are growing at insane rate approaching 200K for a person with mediocre experience. I can hardly believe there’s a shortage of positions for anyone. MS hiring like crazy. I get calls every day though I removed myself from all databases. Google and Facebook are pinging me every month. If someone can’t get into those companies, I must assume they aren’t qualified enough. They should read more about modern technologies and shouldn’t be afraid of getting educated every day through the rest of their lives. IT is that crazy.
8. Americans aren’t getting proper education because the American high school education system doesn’t encourage thinking. Anyone, even the laziest person, can get high grades — either in music or sports. Why think?? Many students are getting their major in history and literature, without thinking about their future, just because that’s simple. You say they don’t go to engineering because they saw what happened with their parents — do you think they saw what happened with their parents who got degree in literature??? What jobs are available nowadays for literature majors? For economists? For psychology and history? My opinion is that young americans don’t go for harder education just because they don’t think. They aren’t raised to think. They want everything simple and easy.
9. Nice rant about driving wages down. But I don’t see that. Basic salary for 2000 was $50K, now it’s $100K and keeps growing over the last few years. So — what wages are down?
10. Someone complained that it’s not possible to sustain a family on $40/hour wage. Well, try $9/hour! That’s the minimal wage in Washington state and a lot of people are getting that. USPS pays $20/hour — how you can live with that?? How much a firefighter gets? A nurse? And do hear them complaining about influx of H2B visa holders?
Some of my friends get $100/hour while working full-time and more for overtime. And they have many openings! What stops you from moving from Memphis, TN to Seattle, WA, if you’re that broke?
11. Overall, I feel that the main theme of your article is this: let our under-educated (who got one class of “computer science” and think they are settled for life), under-motivated (who don’t want to update their resume and get better offers), lazy (who don’t want to move from Tennessee) people get high 6-figure salary for doing the same thing! Well, you can’t change your life by doing same things you’ve been doing before. If you want a change, you have to do something different. You have to educate yourself. Every single freaking day. In IT, a year without learning something new throws you back by 2 years. You have to work for a good resume. You have to challenge yourself.
And thank government for the H1B. Without it, by now there wouldn’t be any software development in this country — just like there’s no more TV manufactured here or no more textile industry or many other things. Without H1B all these development centers would’ve been built in Canada and Mexico.
What a thoughtful response! Of course I disagree and feel you’ve done as much as you can to misread what I’ve written, but I appreciate the effort and organization you put into your response. Let’s let the readers — and the nation — decide for themselves. I stand by my work.
Thank you! But you did make quite a few factual mistakes ))) Couldn’t refuse myself the joy of pointing them out.
And I forgot about my recipe of “fixing it all”: make H1B available with the same country-based quotas as Diversity lottery. Say, 15% of all visas will go to India (not 90% like today). That will help bring diversity to the process, as well as discourage Indians and Chinese from coming here (after all, they will be offered L1s, which are waaay less attractive).
That won’t fix the issue with IBM (I guess, nothing but clients and free market competition can stop them). And won’t stop building R&D centers abroad. But it would introduce some order into the immigration process — since other nationalities are inherently waaaaaay pickier in jobs and salaries. That’s my recipe!
First of all i know that my english is not that good, but i believe its normal when you have to speak 4 foreign languages.
I just read little bit about you Robert, and i’m surprised a guy that has been around for that long, could write this article that is completely non-sense and its not based on any fact (unless you used FOX as a reference)
I can’t believe how come America became like this, i have 29 years of experience in IT/Engineering, i worked all around the world, (and still do) the difference between all the countries and this “great country” was that America welcomed immigrants, especially smart ones, America found a way how to integrate immigrants in their society… and thats what made this country great. But last 10 years are not like that, America completely changed his path of how they want to deal with immigrants, and its not just government its also people like you, that try to do whatever it takes just to create some hate between different communities. People like you hate everyone that is smarter than you, People like you take everything for granted… Let me tell you my friend Science and Technology are not something that you can take for granted, you need to work your ass really hard to get a successful career in STEM!
Putting Bill Gates picture on top, and saying that he is wrong (in bold) it clearly proves that you do whatever it takes just to grab attention of a reader…
i’m surprised how come this country became so evil.
Back on 1996, I did a lot of projects within fortune 500 companies, and most of IT/Engineers had strong accent, and barely knew how to speak english, but they built america, they built the fundamentals of whats called today “Information Technology” they worked hard, and YES they were with H1B Visa.
Please Robert, tell us why did you wrote this article, who paid you to do this… what stands behind all this hate for H1B visa…
It’s not patriotic act, to be against smart people that work on your country…
You’re saying that 7% of them didn’t paid taxes, that sir, its complete BULLSHIT. If your under H1B Good luck not paying taxes, your ass gets kicked out of the country immediately.
Once again, if you like your country, you should support smart people in your country. Only dumb people are afraid from smart people.
Bye
I guess we wonder, if you’re so smart, why not contribute your talents to your native country and make it great, rather than act like you are entitled to take jobs away from the citizens of another country, just because you are willing to work hard. Jobs are a scarce resource throughout the world as machines make productivity less labor-intensive. That resource needs to be protected to some extent, which is why all countries have immigration laws in the first place.
Check out this AP article from November 28, 2012: http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/nov/28/us-pushes-to-keep-entrepreneur-jobs-in-the-country/?print&page=all It looks like the H-1B “problem” is getting more serious in that the Obama administration wants more immigration to make the US more competitive globally.
Bob,
While your article is mostly valid, beneath the veneer of legal concerns, I sense a discomfort with Asian immigrants.
Your response to Andrew is evasive and defensive while he raises genuine concerns about contemporary work ethics and state of education in our country today.
Americans earn several times over the local salary as expats in every country they go to. A lot of times, it is not even a function of talent or skill but the prevailing preference for a Western expat in leadership roles. You will be a lot more enraged if every expat here was making twice as much as an equally qualified American for the same job. Thankfully, our decline hasn’t reached that point yet where Asians come and do our job for three times the money because of their perceived qualities as opposed to real one (but it is possible in a decade or so if we keep transitioning into a welfare-state and the proliferation of nonsense liberal-art/feminism degrees goes unchecked).
I am pretty sure America is in bigger trouble because of loss of manufacturing jobs but they are not here on the Internet blogging so most of the noise is on the IT front while the real ground beneath our feet continues to slip away to China/Mexico/Brazil.
If underpaid H1B workers with inferior skills are being employed and companies are able to make it work somehow, those jobs aren’t really that technical and merit a lesser salary. Instead of pointing your fingers at the politicians and lobbyists, you are training your guns on H1B. The disease has to be treated, not side-effects.
Your article only achieves a xenophobic polarization, not a nuanced understanding of our systemic issues.
p.s. I hope you don’t employ underpaid Mexican help at your household because that would be ironic.
Bob, you are inadvertently covering up the secret that tech companies don’t want Americans to know. Employers can (and do) seek only foreign citizens to fill their US job openings. It’s all legal under the H1-b law.
The rules for H-1B visas don’t require companies to state “there is no comparable U.S. citizen available.”
There have been at least 5 attempts over the last 22 years to fix h1-b law so that employers are required to seek local talent first and state that the company sought but couldn’t find comparable Americans.
In fact, 60 Minutes, in a segment covering the h1-b program in 1993, reported that “the Clinton administration…asked Congress to change the law so that US companies would be forced to look for Americans first before hiring from overseas. Congress is now considering those proposals.”
In 1998, the Clinton White House went to the mat to fix this. However, Congress compromised by creating a sub-category of employers that had to do so. They are called “H1-b dependent”. However, there are loopholes that allow this sub-category to legally avoid Americans if they hire an advanced degreed foreign citizen…or if the foreign citizen has only a bachelors and is paid $60,000 or more.
Discrimination against Americans is so wide spread now that some high-tech companies are brazenly excluding Americans right in their job ads! I analyzed 100 such ads on Dice in my report, “No Americans Need Apply”.
here’s the press coverage, including a snippet in the WSJ:
http://brightfuturejobs.com/bfj-in-the-press/
Donna Conroy, Director
brightfuturejobs.com
Just want to point out the obvious problem in the article – “non-immigration visa” does not mean un-immigrable. It just means that the visa is not for immigration. The holder is free to immigrate through other means.
Also I believe that a quite high percentage of H1B holders got green cards through employer sponsorship. Saying that 700K IT workers are H1Bs are exaggeration unless you also count those who previously hold H1Bs.
H1Bs can be used in two ways – permanent and bring outsourced programmer. The latter case generally matches the one described in the article. However, majority of H1B workers are working in permanent jobs, not on project basis.
Saying a high percent of H-1Bs is misleading in reference to their getting green cards. GC quotas are low and there is a backlog of years for many.
“The 190K a year figure was for FY01, 02, and 03. Since then it has scaled back to 65K.”
DHS reports that, from FY2000 through FY2010, between 76.6K and 200K new/initial H-1B applications and between 94K and 167K renewals and extensions were approved each year.
But the number of visas actually issued is what’s important, what impacts US job markets. And the State Department says that, from FY1999 on, they’ve been issuing over 110K initial/new H-1B visas per year (with one exception). In FY2010 it was over 117K. One estimate I’ve seen for FY2011 is close to 130K, but the official report probably won’t be out until late next Spring and we won’t see numbers for the recently ended FY2012 until 2014 Spring. The peak was over 154K in FY2007, and in FY2003 it was “only” a little over 107K.
From FY2000 through FY2011 that comes to 1.6M new/initial H-1B visas, and from FY1990 it’s just over 2M, so the ramp-up is clear.
(IMO these numbers are 50 to 150 times what would be reasonable if H-1B visas were genuinely, as frequently alleged, for “the best and brightest”, “highly-skilled”, “innovative” professionals with “rare skills and knowledge unavailable in the USA” rather than what is manifestly clear from data, anecdotal evidence and academic research: that their purpose is flooding US job markets with cheap, young, pliant labor with flexible ethics.)
The numbers are available in annual State Department reports and posted in several places on-line with links to those reports (where harried media reporters seem incapable or unwilling to find them). DHS gave up on trying to get fact-based estimates of numbers of legally resident individuals by visa type after a 2-month experiment with exit tracking some years back which was a miserable failure.
Since FY1990 just over 1M L-1 visas have been issued.
Since FY1990 between 217K and over 411K F (student) visas were issued each year, for a total of about 5.9M. (Totally out of control! And these and the J/exchange visas drive excessive demand for the guest-work visas and green cards.)
Since FY1992 between 450 and 9,300 O-1 visas (including the (sarcasm on) Out-Standing Shera Bechar and Dorismar (sarcasm off)) have been issued each year for a total of just over 103K (O-2 visas for assistants and O-3 visas for family members bring the grand-total of O-related visas to 178K).
Since 1990, green cards have been running from just over 700K to 1.8M per year according to the DHS statistical year-book, but State reports, uh… 360K to 540K issued per year over the same period. (DHS is probably reporting “approvals” and State is reporting new visas issued the same as they do with H-1B visas. “Entries” are much higher as people travel back and forth for business and personal reasons; they don’t count humans but, in true bureaucrat tradition, forms submitted at ports of entry, which is easier for the bureaucrats to wrap their minds around, or maybe because it makes it appear that they’re being productive, so they seem to enjoy reporting them.)
A retired inspector informs us that proper background investigations were not run on visa applicants through that time, only “checks”, i.e. look-ups in data-bases of known extreme malefactors by name, known aliases and such, which data-bases and sharing thereof were expanded.
Reading through these comments is hilarious. Basically we should be hands off with the H1B because they provide a nice backdrop to a Horatio Alger of the poor down-trodden foreign IT worker who will strike it rich in America. That combined with the knee-jerk libertarianism inherent in IT, means we’ll never get away form allowing large corporations to game the system.
As for the crowing about $200K salaries in the Bay Area? Try finding a decent place to live and time to spend that money. Kids? ha! those are for losers
Now here is a fun exercise, how about investigating the rise of EEO complaints in H1B dominated workplaces. Anecdotally , I have seen multiple instances of ex-H1B now GC holding IT mgrs preferring to hire only young strapping men of the subcontinent because, you know , they are the only ones “qualified”. This is from a perspective of a contractor/consultant who has flitted around many accounts.
Bellyaching about dropping enrollment in CSE/EE programs? Just rational response to incentives.
I now work for one of those ex H1b managers. He hires only younger males from his home country, and is working hard to drive out the existing team – 5 of 6 are US born. In the 6 months he has led two groups together, we have lost 4 permanent employees – out of 12 originally – and at least two more are looking. He has already had HR complaints filed, not by me, for how he treats people. He informed us we all were working at least 10 hours a day “because it’s silicon valley, and everyone does it”, yet reduces our independence and autonomy – risking a lawsuit for the company. An other ex-H1b I worked with was treated like a slave, and they even dicked him around on getting his green card. He left when he got his green card, as he had a gut full of the abuse. He told me he’d miss the people, not the abuse.
The H1B program also reduces the taxes the H1Ber has to pay to
the US Government.
I was an H1B in 1983 and I was able to claim 26 deductions on my W-2!
I could claim for lodging, food, travel, washing, you name it. So although
I was paid less, I still lived well enough.
So, in effect, by reducing revenues, this program also increases the deficit..
Is this story a “real life” manifestation of a computer virus?
I interviewed for a job at Marvell Semiconductor about 10 years ago for a firmware Engineer. I didn’t get the job. I was there at about 8:00 at night and so were most of the people in the Engineering Department. I don’t think that there were any Americans working there. As the Hiring Manager was talking to me a guy went past the cubicle we were in and the manager yelled at him “Where are you going?”. He said he was going to the bath room and would be right back. If I worked there he wouldn’t have been able to yell at me…. because I would have been at home because they can’t threaten to send me back to China if I don’t work 14 hour days. H1B Visa don’t just hurt my chances of getting hired there, they make the workers basically slaves. I had worked previously with a guy from Switzerland. He was brought over by my boss who was born in Switzerland, came here on a work VISA and stayed because he found an American wife. The younger Swiss guy HATED his job but he couldn’t leave because the H1B was for just one company. If he didn’t like the, he would go back to Switzerland or just shut up and do it anyway.
I work for a European multinational with an sizable office in Silicon Valley and in my group of twelve, ten are on H1Bs. None of them are doing a job that an American couldn’t do. I have personally interviewed 15+ applicants and most of the US based folks were good, if not better in most cases. I can only speak for my group but ALL are on the track for naturalization after the H1B runs out. Also its a myth the Americans don’t want to do engineering disciplines. Most if not all American universities will prefer a foreign student over an American as the foreign students are paying full price which equals more profits for the Uni.
Bob, this is some of the best, most important work you have ever done. The abuse is rampant and is preventing many young people from learning or working in IT. And, we are shipping the IP and the jobs back to India with all the attendant security risks. Thank you for doing this!
Good article! Many articles, including this one, covers industry or cap H1B, however, there are non exempt H1Bs which have no annual cap limit. These cap exempt H1Bs can be used by research institutions, universities, hospitals and not-for-profit organizations. These jobs are equally demanding and as much important as commercial industry jobs. It’s relatively easier to get a cap exempt H1B, but practically impossible to get out of it unless the person has been subject to cap based H1B in last 6 years. It’s practically impossible to make cap exempt to cap transition as cap based H1B petition is to be filled in April for the job starting in October. obviously no company will wait for 6-8 months for the candidate to join in. I think this April-October wait period might be increasing malpractice of filling more H1Bs than needed which could otherwise free up for genuine openings. I think many companies, especially those located offshore, might be filling pool of H1Bs which can come handy if there is any urgent need later in the year. Also, it helps companies to retain employees offshore with the lure of sending them on site. An employee with H1B in hand is less likely to leave the company as the visa will be void if he/she quits the job. So it’s a good technique to retain employees as well, but pretty costly nowadays with increased H1B costs.
Every industry will complain about shortage of skilled workers. We need visa reforms to make it easy to hire foreign nationals if needed, but not necessarily increase in visa cap.
Bob – you said:
“Here’s where I’ll give a shout-out to the Libertarian contingent reading this column because they’ll tend to say “So what? It’s every man or woman for himself. Employers should be able to do whatever they damned well please while workers can always go elsewhere.”
But it’s against the law.”
I see. Protecting slaves who had escaped from their masters was illegal under the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850. Does that mean that people who protected slaves were wrong in doing so?
Protecting Jews in Nazi Germany was against the law. Does this mean that Germans who protected Jews were wrong in doing so?
Drinking was illegal during Prohibition. Did that make it wrong to drink alcohol?
The fact that something is against the law is not really an argument against it unless you first prove that the law itself is morally correct.
Now let’s look at your argument:
First, regardless of whether the facts you have stated in your article are correct, your entire argument is based on the assumption that U.S. workers somehow have a natural, absolute right to jobs created by U.S. based employers. Except that they don’t. The only natural rights are the rights to your own life, liberty and property.
A right to a job is a conditional right. You only have a right to a job if someone else is willing to offer it to you at terms that are mutually acceptable.
Second, your argument commits the very common economic fallacy of only looking at the first-order consequences of a particular action and ignoring the secondary consequences. Yes, foreign IT workers drive down the wages of U.S. IT workers. But that’s only looking at one side of the issue.
When companies employ these lower cost workers, one of 2 things happen:
a) They are able to increase their profits.
b) Since their costs are lower, and assuming other companies have also been able to reduce their costs in the same manner, competitive forces cause them to lower the prices of their products.
If (b) happens, everyone else in the society benefits from the increased material standard of living that these low prices bring about because they are able to purchase more products and services with the same level of income.
If (a) happens, the increased profits are ultimately given to shareholders in the form of increased dividends. Shareholders then invest or spend these additional dividends, thus helping the rest of the economy.
Net-net, regardless of whether (a) or (b) happens, as any introductory course in economics will prove, the country as a whole benefits from this, even though some people in the country might get hurt by it. But the fact that some people in the country might get hurt is no argument to prevent this from happening. Henry Ford put a lot of horse and buggy factory workers out of work.
So what does happen to the laid off US IT worker? The same thing that happened to the laid off US horse and buggy factory worker. They have to retrain and get jobs elsewhere, or improve their IT skills in order to make themselves even more valuable to potential employers.
Your logic is incredibly flawed.
> When company employ the lower cost workers, one of 2 things happen:
> a) They are able to increase their profits
> b) Since their costs are lower….lower the prices or their product.
You present your argument as an either or, which is incorrect.
Lower cost workers can lead to increased profits AND highter prices
OR, the opposite may happen
Lower cost workers can lead to decreased profits AND lower prices
“It is no crime to be ignorant of economics, which is, after all, a specialized discipline and one that most people consider to be a ‘dismal science.’ But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on economic subjects while remaining in this state of ignorance.” –Murray Rothbard
I could not think of a better quote to characterize your statement. Exactly how does lower cost workers cause either of the 2 situations you mentioned?
Lower cost workers either lead to (a) higher profits, or (b) lower product prices, or, as happens most often in the real world, a combination of both higher profits and lower product prices. Whatever be the case, whether it’s solely (a), solely (b), or a combination of (a) and (b), the fact remains that foreign IT workers benefit the country as a whole even though it might hurt the country’s own IT workers in the short term.
To all of you who believe on reason and facts, here it is an article from huff. Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/james-m-gentile/immigration-science-and-t_b_2002893.html
Please read it, and see by yourself that Robert did this article on pure hate towards h1b holders.
Goni,
Now your English is almost good – better. But the content just sucks.
Goni,
Your English now is pretty good – better. But the content just sucks.
I’m surprised a dumb fat ass like you, can actually go online.
[...] on it) that includes criminal celebrities with a media empire in their pockets. Never mind if those celebrities cheapen and harm workers, those celebrities are being used as a promotion tool [1, 2, 3, 4] for Vista 8. There are many [...]
Companies ruined or almost ruined by imported Indian labor
Adaptec – Indian CEO Subramanian Sundaresh fired.
AIG (signed outsourcing deal in 2007 in Europe with Accenture Indian frauds, collapsed in 2009)
AirBus (Qantas plane plunged 650 feet injuring passengers when its computer system written by India disengaged the auto-pilot).
Alcatel-Lucent – 9,000 laid off on 9/17/12. Started hiring large numbers of Indian workers in 2003-2004. Business “Severely drying up”
Apple – R&D CLOSED in India in 2006.
Apple – Indian national and former Goldman Sachs board member Rajat Gupta charged with leaking Intel and Apple secrets over the phone.
Australia’s National Australia Bank (Outsourced jobs to India in 2007, nationwide ATM and account failure in late 2010).
Barclays Bank – UK executive management was corrupted by Shriti Vadera, the Indian-origin economist. His advice led Barclay’s CEO and other execs to rig Libor interest rates.
Bell Labs (Arun Netravalli took over, closed, turned into a shopping mall)
Boeing Dreamliner ES software (written by HCL, banned by FAA)
Bristol-Myers-Squibb (Trade Secrets and documents stolen in U.S. by Indian national guest worker)
Caymas – Startup run by Indian CEO, French director of dev, Chinese tech lead. Closed after 5 years of sucking VC out of America.
Caterpillar misses earnings a mere 4 months after outsourcing to India, Inc.
Circuit City – Outsourced all IT to Indian-run IBM and went bankrupt shortly thereafter.
Cisco – destroyed by Indian labor, laid off 55,000 in 2012, going down the drain.
Color – Bill Nguyen’s startup raised $41 million for a mobile app without producing anything. You can bet most of that went to remittance-hungry foreign workers.
ComAir crew system run by 100% Indian IT workers caused the 12/25/05 U.S. airport shutdown when they used a short int instead of a long int
Computer Associates – Former CEO Sanjay Kumar, an Indian national, sentenced to 12 years in federal prison for accounting fraud.
Deloitte – 2010 – this Indian-packed consulting company is being sued under RICO fraud charges by Marin Country, California for a failed solution.
Dell – call center (closed in India)
Delta call centers (closed in India)
Duke University – Massive scientific fraud by Indian national Dr. Anil Potti discovered in 2012.
Enron, WorldCom, Qwest, and Tyco all hired large numbers of foreign workers from India before their scandals.
Fannie Mae – Hired large numbers of Indians, had to be bailed out. Indian logic bomb creator found guilty and sent to prison.
Goldman Sachs – Kunil Shah, VP & Managing Director – GS had to be bailed out by US taxpayers for $550 BILLION.
GM – Was booming in 2006, signed $300 million outsourcing deal with Wipro that same year, went bankrupt 3 years later
HP – Got out of the PC hardware business in 2011 and can’t compete with Apple’s tablets. HP was taken over by Indians and Chinese in 2001. So much for ‘Asian’ talent!
HSBC ATMs (software taken over by Indians, failed in 2006)
IBM bill collecting system for Austin, TX failed in 2012 written by Indians at IBM
Intel Whitefield processor project (cancelled, Indian staff canned)
Intel – Trade secret stolen by Indian national Biswamohan Pani in 2012.
JetStar Airways computer failure brings down Christchurch airport on 9/17/11. JetStar is owned by Quantas – which is know to have outsourced to India, Inc.
JP Morgan – Outsourced subsidiary & IT integration to India in 2009 for $400 million, lost $2 billion in 2012.
Kodak: Outsourced to India in 2006, filed for bankruptcy in Jan, 2012.
Lehman (Jasjit Bhattal ruined the company. Spectramind software bought by Wipro, ruined, trashed by Indian programmers)
London Olympics 2012 Security – Botched by India’s G4S
Medicare – Defrauded by Indian national doctor Arun Sharma & wife in the U.S.
Microsoft – Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it’s lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.
MIPS – Taken over by Indian national Sandeep Vij in 2010, being sold off in 2012.
MIT Media Lab Asia (canceled)
MyNines – A startup founded and run by Indian national Apar Kothari went belly up after throwing millions of America’s VC $ down the drain.
Nomura Securities – (In 2011 “struggling to compete on the world stage”). No wonder because Jasjit Bhattal formerly of failed Lehman ran it. See Lehman above.
PeopleSoft (Taken over by Indians in 2000, collapsed).
PepsiCo – Slides from #1 to #3 during Indian CEO Indra Nooyi’ watch.
Polycom – Former senior executive Sunil Bhalla charged with insider trading.
Qantas – See AirBus above
Quark (Alukah Kamar CEO, fired, lost 60% of its customers to Adobe because Indian-written QuarkExpress 6 was a failure)
Reebok – Massive fraud and theft in India second in size only to Satyam fraud
Rolls Royce (Sent aircraft engine work to India in 2006, engines delayed for Boeing 787, and failed on at least 2 Quantas planes in 2010, cost Rolls $500m).
SAP – Same as Deloitte above in 2010.
Siemens – Pentagon searches U.S. offices of Siemens unit 10/2012 for illegal payments to government officials (bribes). Siemens laid off most of its American workers in 2003 and replaced them with workers from India.
Singapore airlines (IT functions taken over in 2009 by TCS, website trashed in August, 2011)
Skype (Madhu Yarlagadda fired)
State of Indiana $867 million FAILED IBM project, IBM being sued
State of New York – Hired Indian-infested CSC in 1998 to build a new system, was 33 months late and $166 million over budget, a cost overrun of 47 percent. And then the system failed. So much for “they can do it better, cheaper, faster”. CSC also holds the sole contract for NC’s Medicaid system redesign. That project is hundreds of millions over budget and years late. India, Inc. is taking its time to maximize the amount it can grift out of America.
State of Texas failed IBM project.
Sun Micro (Taken over by Indian and Chinese workers in 2001, collapsed, had to be sold off to Oracle).
Toyota – Ibrahimshah Shahulhameed, a native of India, sabotaged Toyota’s supplier website, and stole trade secrets in 2012.
UK’s NHS outsourced numerous jobs including health records to India in mid-2000 resulting in $26 billion over budget.
Union Bank of California – Cancelled Finacle project run by India’s InfoSys in 2011.
United – call center (closed in India)
US Navy F-18 jet crashes into Virginia apartment building on 4/6/12 after outsourcing F-18 work to India’s Tata.
Victorian Order of Nurses, Canada (Payroll system screwed up by SAP/IBM in mid-2011)
Virgin Atlantic (software written in India caused cloud IT failure)
World Bank (Indian fraudsters BANNED for 3 years because they stole data).
I could post the whole list here but I don’t want to crash any servers.
Here is what all those brilliant H-1Bs from India are really doing to Americans:
From: “Rajesh Kumar Ramachandran
Subject: Listen to me A******!!
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:49:20 -0700 (PDT)
Now listen carefully to me a******.. dont just bark around in the corner like a rabies stricken stray dog about your pathetic views about politics and jobs. If your insecure about your skills and abilities thats your f****** problem not Indians or any other politicians.. Well you want me to provoke you well then hear this, we are gonna take all your jobs away.. we gonna make sure that you dont even have money to buy s*** and eat, we gonna take evrything thatwas yours.. we gonna drape the Statue of Liberty with a saree (you dont know wahta saree iis, well its a dress which Indian women wear).. now get your f****** stinking face out of here A******!!!!!
Great post wakjob, nice to see someone with the guts to post some truth. This is all part of the leftist agenda to promote multiculturalism, and dilute any national identity we have left. Wake up people!
And if you want to see how all these jealous Asians are conspiring to keep Americans, specifically white Americans out of jobs, then just read this internal email from Sun (which they bankrupted). Note especially the names of the 2 email groups it was sent to:
——– Original Message ——–
Subject: Sr. Electrical Engineer Position available @ Oplink
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:40:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Julie Koo
Reply-To: Julie Koo [email protected]
————- Begin Forwarded Message ————-
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:43:52 -0700
From: Sabrina Chan
Subject: Sr. Electrical Engineer Position available @ Oplink
To: [email protected], [email protected]
MIME-version: 1.0 X-Accept-Language: en
Original-recipient: rfc822;[email protected]
Hi, The company my friend works at is currently looking for a Senior Electrical Engineer. If you know any qualified applicants, please have them send their resume directly to: [email protected]. Attached below is a copy of the job description. Oplink is a telecommunications company.
Thanks”
Thank you for an informative article, Robert. It supports the contention in one of my articles below on the harms of the H-1B Visa that the cost avoidance to a “high tech” employer like Microsoft for a H-1B Visa admission is approximately $150,000.
A 2002 ComputerWorld article quoted free-market advocate and Nobel economics laureate Milton Friedman as saying that the H-1B Visa is a “government subsidy” program because it allows employers to obtain a higher-skilled worker for below-market wages. Furthermore, Kamal Nath, Commerce Minister of India was quoted in the 15 April 2007 New York Times as saying that the H-1B Visa was the “outsourcing visa.”
U.S. Colleges Are Both Victimizers and Victims of Mass Immigration
http://tinyurl.com/victimizer-University
How Record Immigration Levels Robbed American High-Tech Workers of $10 Trillion
http://tinyurl.com/74cc64p
The Greedy Gates Immigration Gambit
http://tinyurl.com/37l8ry
This article provides important legislative history.
Career Destruction Sites – What American colleges have become
http://tinyurl.com/nn28sp
From 1975-2010, more than 37 million visa admissions on just five high-skill work visa programs occurred. The biggest adverse economic impact on Americans has been the over 6.5 million H-1 and H-1B visa admissions during that period.
Political corruption is at the heart of the controversial H-1B Visa. As “The Greedy Gates Immigration Gambit” establishes, corrupt lobbyist Jack Abramoff and his team worked for Microsoft to help procure 3 “Microsoft friendly” changes to H-1B Visa legislation between 1995-2000. Microsoft and its proxies expended about $100 million during the same period. One of the original members of “Team Abramoff,” Michael Smith is now a VP with Cornerstone Government Affairs. Michael handles the Microsoft account – and continues to lobby for more liberalization of the H-1B Visa program. The cumulative economic benefit for Microsoft Corporation has been at least $5 billion.
Microsoft Corporation is by far and away the leading direct employer of H-1B visas with over 35,000 LCAs granted between 2001-2012. Recently, Microsoft announced at the Brookings Institution a plan to pay $10,000 per visa to obtain more H-1B Visas. That figure is a tiny fraction of the estimated $150,000 cost avoidance that Microsoft obtains by hiring a H-1B.
I was able to get “on the record” in the case USA v Abramoff. I attended Jack Abramoff’s sentencing hearing on 4 September 2008 at the DC District Courthouse. My 110 page “Victim Impact Statement” is document #40 in the Court docket in PDF format. http://tinyurl.com/koyqg2
In summary, the H-1B Visa program is a corrupt program that benefits the greedy economic elites that designed and expanded the program. It is an example of “bad law.” The H-1B Visa program should be immediately terminated because it is causing so many harms to Americans.
Bob, on behalf of the Libertarian contingent of your readership, I’d like to point you towards the broader economic picture here.
People work because they want purchasing power. Purchasing power is a function of both the amount of money you make and the price of goods and services you can purchase with that money. Neither of those things are static. Arguing in favor of higher wages for Americans while simultaneously arguing in favor of policies that drive up the cost of living for Americans is counterproductive towards the end of improving Americans’ standard of living. All companies work on behalf of their customers. Anything that enables a company to reduce their cost of doing business enables them to reduce prices for their customers. As long as there are no barriers to entry for new suppliers in a market, there’s a very real market incentive for companies to pass the savings on to their customers. That reduces the customers’ cost of living and by extension it enhances their standard of living.
If we reduce or do away with the H-1B visa program, yes that will mean higher wages for American tech workers, but it will also mean higher prices for all consumers of tech products. This may sound like a perfectly reasonable thing to do until you consider the fact that every industry engages in similar restrictions that ultimately make everything we buy more expensive, not just tech. This type of market protectionism only benefits a small subset of people at the expense of everyone else. The answer is not to do more of the same. The answer is to let the free market operate, let supply to meet demand, and let prices come down.
This isn’t about “every man for himself”. It’s about what’s best for everyone.
“Purchasing power is a function of both the amount of money you make and the price of goods and services you can purchase with that money. ”
If there are no jobs for Americans except at indentured slave wages (that get eaten up by the basics of food and housing), there will be no money with which to buy those cheap foreign made goods. If you have to take a job that you are overqualified for at substandard wages because H1b’s are in all the jobs you are really qualified for, fewer goods are actually sold, the only “profits” returned to the stockholders are from liquidating divisions or holdings, and innovation slows to a crawl. Poorly paid engineers (citizen or H1b) can’t come up with early seed money to start their own companies, either.
H1b is a monkey wrench in the business cycle. It rewards (temporarily) mediocrity with the appearance of cost savings, but ultimately sends a business into the dustbin. Indentured servants seldom innovate well for their masters.
I would have far less problem if the imported workers competed on a level playing field: ability to change jobs after 6 months, ability to negotiate salary like citizens and green card holders, and ability to get laid off or quit without losing visa status. Then only the initial company would only be able to lock him in to substandard wages for the first 6 months, but after that would have to treat him well or lose him to the market.
Also, they should be screened for “paper mill” degrees that are fake or substandard and for falsified CVs, all before they get off the plane.
Part of the objection to the H1b is that it allows a government program to tilt the playing field in favor of abusive companies and against workers, which is not libertarian, IMO. Corporatist, yes, but not libertarian.
Right on the money Mark. Good to know that I am not the only one out here trying to refute the same fallacious arguments in favour of protectionism that people have been making for centuries.
This guy on NPR seems to be saying completely the opposite. He’s thinking that we should have 400,000 Visa’s instead of 100,000.
http://www.npr.org/2012/10/05/162297444/preventing-silicon-valleys-immigrant-exodus
And how much NASSCOM $ is NPR taking to say “more visas”?
Bob, You’re trying to plug the leaking sieve of international commerce and free trade. There are lots of multinational corporations which merely move the work to their overseas facilities. The American staff decreases while the non-American staff increases. No visas needed. Where are your stats on this? This has long been true for the assembly line worker and now it’s becoming true to the rest of us as well.
We need to deal with the reality of having to compete in the global economy. Protectionist efforts to stem the tide of free trade is an exercise in futility and in the long run helps no one. On the positive side, overall prosperity is on the rise in places that were once poverty stricken with no hope for escape. We don’t need social justice political activism – liberty and free trade benefit all. “A rising tide raises all ships,” JFK. — Your friendly neighborhood U. S. Libertarian I. T. worker.
@NPR:
First of all that NPR article is about (Indian) entrepreneurs.
Second, NPR should use google for 5 secs before conducting an interview. There is something that is called an E-Visa. And you don’t need millions for that.
“There has been and will be a substantial capital investment in the US. There is no specific cash threshold defined, but $40,000 is probably an absolute minimum, and any investment below $100,000 would need a very strong case to support it.”
Source: http://www.workpermit.com/us/investor_e1_e2.htm
The only question in that interview is why India is not covered by that treaty?
Therefore, I make the conclusion that guy in the interview is not after an entrepreneurial issue, but after a specific Indian specific immigration problem amongst tech workers.
HA! Too funny! Currently, at the top of your article is an ad from corp-corp-com promoting “65,000 USA H1B Jobs” and asking for resumes. Obviously there was a search of your article’s content and it made a match. So in effect, your article against H1b visas has served to promote them. Very funny!
I’m English and came to the US in the mid 70′s on an inter-company transfer visa (B1 at that time) and got the visa based on the fact that I was trained to work on and repair the companies equipment (Holter recorders and EKG Analyzers). The company had to advertize the position locally in Maryland and of course nobody applied because it required specialized knowledge that the local community college grads didn’t have. I ended up running the service department, training and employing four US citizens as the company expanded – everyone else in the company was an American.
I discovered, after hiring local US citizens, that I was seriously underpaid by US standards at the time but there was little I could do about it since the company could just ship me back to the UK anytime while I was on the B1 visa.
Eventually I applied for and was granted resident alien status and now I’m a US citizen but every time I get a statement from the Social Security Administration I can see the difference in wages between being a B1 visa and a Resident Alien.
Bob, It was once against the law NOT to return slaves to their owners. Instead of discussing the rightness of the situation, you hide behind the law. This merely evidences the weakness of your argument. You have an uphill climb in making a case against liberty and free trade and you’re sliding down into the swamp.
TITLE 8 CHAPTER 12 SUBCHAPTER II Part II § 1182. Inadmissible aliens (5) Labor certification and qualifications for certain immigrants (A) Labor certification (i) In general, any alien who seeks to enter the United States for the purpose of performing skilled or unskilled labor is inadmissible, unless the Secretary of Labor has determined and certified to the Secretary of State and the Attorney General that— (I) there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified (or equally qualified in the case of an alien described in clause (ii)) and available at the time of application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor, and (II) the employment of such alien will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of workers in the United States similarly employed.
“Free Trade” was another communist goal from the 1960s. Google “Communist goals 1963″. “Free trade” is a ploy foisted on Americans to allow what Americans created to be stolen by other lazy countries. Meanwhile China is putting 200% tariffs on US autos and India is screaming bloody murder because Wal-Mart opened there.
Bob mentions “2.5 million body labor pool”. I think that’s an extreme under-estimate.
Recent BLS estimates have 3M in the A&E “labor force” (i.e. employed plus unemployed actively seeking work, in architecture and engineering, citizens plus non-citizens), and a little over 4.6M for the math and computer “labor force” (plus operators & CIS managers which they count separately). So, adding up their numbers, BLS would be likely to say that the STEM “labor force” is about 8.2M, virtually the same as the numbers of citizens plus non-citizens they report as currently employed in these occupations (with about 1.8M in likely rounding and other estimation errors, due to the nature of this data-set’s survey sample sizes, and from adding numbers reported as employed plus unemployed actively seeking work).
These do not include former mechanical engineers or former software architects who are now in suvival jobs (pet-sitting, serving coffee, selling blue jeans, driving the courtesy van for the car repair shop, teaching guest-workers how to program 1 term per year at the local juco or extension campus… — we are all them, been them, met them, read their postings or e-mail messages, or on rare occasions read some of their widely scattered stories in the media). BLS counts them as fully-employed pet-sitters, coffee servers, etc., not as under-employed STEM workers, and not as part of the STEM “labor force”.
An examination of the unemployment rates by detailed occupations suggests that current unemployment rates in STEM fields are running between 2 and 3 times historical full employment levels, as Bob noted in an earlier article with a graph.
The Health and Mortality stats show that average life expectancy at birth is now about 79 years, from age 20 it’s 80, and the numbers living past age 100 are growing. Many articles assert that “seniors” are, on average, more active and healthy and productive than ever, accompanied with articles of well-off retirees founding new firms, going back to doing “real work” of various kinds in addition to the traditional charity/volunteer work and honorary posts (and then there’s the local prosecutor with flexible ethics who figured out how to start collecting his retirement pension while still working at full salary and benefits). I’ve taught, in 15-20 minutes, 70+ year old mechanical engineers how to create tables and do complex searches in relational data-bases using SQL, to help them set up an work with data-bases to track their design archives to increase re-use.
So, instead of 30 years of productive life (or the 25 years beginning at age 14 that was common a century back), we’ve now got a baby boom and genx and geny… with 55 to 75 years of productive life, while the H-1B system encourages employment discrimination that watchers of the issue have noted starts dumping capable US citizen STEM workers at age 35 (despite continuous learning and periodic re-tooling). Executives clearly want the young, pliant worker with recently-attained “skills”, not the experienced worker with recently-attained “skills” who just completed the same course-work or training… or, for that matter, taught those courses.
Meanwhile, a recent estimate by Camarota at CIS, using BLS numbers, is that the able and willing US citizen STEM talent pool is such that 1.8M US citizen STEM pros are not employed in STEM jobs. Hal Salzman and B. Lindsay Lowell have, indepenently and together over the last decade, done research which repeatedly suggested to them that we’ve only been employing about a third of degreed US citizen STEM grads in STEM work.
Since 1970, according to the Dept. of Education, US citizens have earned just over 3M STEM degrees from academic year 1999-2000 to AY2009-2010, and over 9M STEM degrees from AY1969-1970 to AY2009-2010 (over 1.3M of them CS degrees). According to NSF, we have quite a few capable and professional US STEM workers who do not have STEM degrees (i.e. CS or CE may have been their minor, or maybe they were music and psych or Latin or Greek literature majors who took one programming class and taught themselves the rest, or maybe they were receptionists who were cross-trained to become sys admins — I’ve seen each of these cases and all of them were good STEM workers). Using DoE and NSF figures brings the total of US citizen STEM workers added from AY1969-1970 to AY2009-2010 to just under 12M (2.3M of them in CS-related fields). So, the available US citizen STEM talent pool is closer to 12M. (If we subtract lawyers who took CS classes as part of being certified to practice copyright and patent law, early retirees and early deaths, it might bring us down to 10.5M or 11M. That still leaves a surplus of a couple million fully qualified US citizen STEM workers.)
“converting an H-1B visa into a green card is through marriage to a U.S. citizen.”
Actually, most of the time the employer sponsors and H1B’s green card. This happens in most cases when an H1B comes to the U.S. The H1B wants to stay as the oppurtunities have always been much greater here than were they came from. I guess this is changing a little now with all the developing countries having explosive growth.
Couldn’t help but laugh when you said, “and the signal it sends to students is to study law instead of computer science”. I was a computer science major at BYU working for the IT dept at the law school just a year and a half ago. Have had that same thought many times. In school and after.
Am currently in a job I’m happy with, even if the pay is crap.
Will try to spread the word on this. Not sure what else to do about it. :/
[...] explain the game to the general public in words and concepts the average american can understand. cringley had an article this week that explained it in very plan language. Keep invoicing and carry [...]
[...] What Americans don’t know about H-1B visas could hurt us all ~ I, Cringely. Share this:TwitterFacebookGoogle +1Like this:LikeBe the first to like this. [...]
Is there any point at which China and India can employ the majority of their own? Why does the US continue to be the major driver of demand for foreign workers? Would be nice if their own governments stepped it up and created opportunities locally and not rely so much on the US to provide the demand. Do these countries offer the equivalent of an H1-B for US workers?
Hit a nerve here Bob.
The level of corruption is staggering.
Just remember the NYC Subways are engineered by Engineers not native to the USA the next time you ride it.
Thank god they are manually controlled.
WMATA Subways in DC crash more often and they are “automatic”.
To many people everywhere are not doing the right thing.
I agree with Bob that there is a problem. But I think there is no political will to fix it. Big tech companies have deep pockets and relationship with government, I don’t foresee this issue being address anything soon. So knowing this dark fact, I can only encourage my kids not to study Computer Science. Can’t fight the system, can only navigate around it.
The H1-B (and other visa) program(s) need to be sharply curtailed.
If we are in such dire need of STEM graduates, then we need the industry to fund scholarships expressly for the purpose.
Without H1B program, this country wouldn’t have achieved it’s technical edge over the world. The big Corps need qualified ANTS to build their BIG empires. The qualified ANTS happened to be persons with an engineering degree from India which US doesn’t have. Do u think US law makers allow H1Bs, if there are abundance of US citizens who can do all this work? H1B is the backbone of US tech industry. You can try simulating a scenario to let go of all H1B’s and see how this nation limps. I am a H1B and I am not a native english speaker. Pardon my grammatical mistakes, but u should get my message. Its like survival of the fittest. On the bright side, we pay every tax(medicare,SS) like a US citizen but we DONT get any benefit from it. By law we are bonded with the employers sponsoring H1B. How is this not modern day bonded labour?
If you have such indispensable expertise, why do you have to work for an American company in America? Why not make your native country great? Regarding benefits, since the H-1B is a temporary visa, it means the experience and knowledge you gain here leaves with you, so it sort of makes sense that there are some SS and Medicare benefits left in the US to partially make up for the loss of jobs for Americans.
Who says the desire is to work for “an American company in America”? Jeez, take off your blinders! Or wake up and smell the coffee…
I have worked for very specific companies in Germany, in the UK and the US. While traveling and seeing the world is nice, other countries would have been OK as well, whereas other random companies for example in the US would have been almost entirely uninteresting.
The difference is that as a German I just move to the UK, no muss no fuss, and vice versa for UK citizens in Germany. It’s just the US that turns it into some major affair of state.
And when I moved to the US, a UK bank was actually making me a (financially) much better offer. So much for the myth of people “making their fortune” in the US. It was just that this particular US company was more interesting to me personally, because with my particular skills I felt I could make a bigger impact there. And vice versa, this particular US company thought that I was just the right fit for their very particular needs.
Welcome to the global village!
“Who says the desire is to work for “an American company in America”?” But that’s what the H-1B visa is for, is it not? If you weren’t coming to work in America, you would not need a visa. Let’s face it this article is all about the visa program being abused to the point where non-citizens are effectively taking jobs away from Americans because they are cheaper, being subject to the “indentured servitude” principle combined with the willingness of the non-citizens to eventually leave the US with their skills and earnings for their less expensive home country.
Yes, that is the fundamental premise of this article, and that fundamental premise is wrong.
Once again, you are putting nationality and location first. As I explained it is secondary for many on the H1B program.
There is a fit between a particular company and a particular individual. The company needs the skills this particular individual has and would like to hire that particular individual, and the individual would like to work for that particular company. Country or nationality doesn’t come into it at this point.
In my case, I actually would have much preferred the company in question to have engineering departments in Germany, but that is something they currently don’t want to do, so in order to work for that company, I had to move to the US. Mind you, they are a big multi-national and so have many other sorts of offices all over the world, including in the UK and in Germany, and even some engineering, just not the parts I was interested in and that were interested in me.
So once again: moving to the US is not the desired outcome in this situation, but rather a necessary evil, having that same job in Germany would have been preferable.
And before you cry “off-shoring”, please be aware that said company exports much more to Germany than it employs people here, so by the metrics used here, which I don’t agree with, this company is destroying German jobs.
Or is “destroying jobs” in other countries OK as long as the country doing the “destroying” is the US of A?
And yes, there are abuses, but these abuses have very little to do with the H1B, and very much to do with what I have described as the outsourcing mentality, the way corporate power has become almost completely unchecked in the US and the way workers’ rights have been eroded massively.
And the (corporate) powers that be obviously *love* that the solution(s) suggested involve putting *more* limitations on people, rather than empowering people and putting constraints on corporations.
Ever wonder why a country like India or China cannot employ it’s own people? Why is there a need to export your skills to the US? Why have your own governments and corporations failed to provide for you?
Unfortunately US IT employees do not have a lobby to buy representation in Congress. Therefore our interests as individuals will never be represented and we will continue to lose to our better funded and well-organized foes. It appears to me that we need to organize in order to stop the carnage of jobs. Members of Congress have failed us and will continue to do so as long as they have conflicts of interest and are not independent of the corporations.
Another point to consider in the excuse used for “no qualified applicants” is that many HR departments these days automatically are disqualifying people if they are not holding a position they are currently applying for. So this removes anyone changing jobs or who is currently out of work. Personally I think this sort of practice should be an automatic dis-qualifier for participating in the H1-B program.
Wouldn’t it be reasonable to add a requirement to the legislation enabling the H1-B visa that required the creation of a jobs marketplace website where the applicant company requesting an H1-B visa would have to advertise the position, requirements, location and compensation (prevailing wage)?
Then we would see if there really are no USA citizens/residents qualified and willing to take the job (and move to the location if necessary). Applications would have to go through the centralized website in order to track interest. It seems like this would call their bluff about there not being anybody available for the positions.
Of course, it might be hard to get this through Congress with all the big companies lobbying against it, but what would their arguments be?
[...] Cringely – What Americans don’t know about H-1B visas could hurt us all [...]
[...] engineers who are not at the top of the technical heap, on the other hand, can look forward to ongoing downward pressure on wages and [...]
Here you go Robert, you are big liar buddy
http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2012/10/31/misunderstanding-the-benefits-of-high-skilled-immigrants/
P.s you made it to the forbes, but as a liar.
Forbes did not say that Bob was a liar. Only that they wished to present a “rebuttal” which they did. They did not say anything new. We all understand the benefits of lower prices and the trickle down effect of employing more people. But Forbes did not go so far as to carry their argument to its logical conclusion. Namely that all barriers to immigration and free trade should be eliminated; no visas should be required to enter or work in any country in the world. Yet most countries would not take this extreme view, since there is some benefit to maintaining a local talent pool and preserving the welfare of its own citizens, whether by birth or naturalized.
Are you Robert? I guess not, so stay the fuck out, you old prick
If you’re nice, perhaps Bob will give you his email address for private communication.
Hi Bob, just to let you know that, in fact, *most* H1B holders eventually become permanent immigrants by applying for AOS (adjustment of status). Approximately 140,000 Employment Based categories Green Cards are given to applicants: http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_1323.html#overview
So, your statement saying most of them go back, and that most of those who stay in the U.S. do so by marrying U.S. citizens is false.
Fantastic article, Bob. A dear friend recently went on agency contract to one of America’s largest corporations; the company had just started a software division that was supposed to staff to about 500 people. When he arrived, literally 97% (he counted them) of the software group was Indian. My friend is Caucasian; there were 9 Caucasians in his group – every one of them superb developers who ended up being treated like crap by the Indian who ran the division. Ethnic discrimination in hiring was blatant, with no regard for HR niceties.
A number of American developers were hired at first, to set up the division framework, and as soon as they had done that, less skilled Indians were promoted and the Americans were forced out
Not only that, in Silicon Valley a LOT of the tech recruiting firms are staffed by Indians, so they put their own in the pipeline, almost exclusively.
Nepotism is rampant, with new L-1′s and H1-B’s coming to work straight from India, and on a first-name basis with senior Indian executives who know each other through family – it’s unbelievable.
What’s more, the work culture is exceedingly abusive, with Indian managers treating everyone as if they were still back in Bangalore – insisting on long hours; insisting on absolute deference to authority; blatant sexism and gender/age discrimination.
I don’t blame most of the H1-B’s, as they came for opportunity. I blame our corrupt policy makers and corporate leaders who don’t give a rat’s ass about our human capital infrastructure.
The abuses are “in your face” and purely discriminatory against American workers. It’s maddening, and frustrating to see superb American developers out of work while fairly unskilled foreigners take their positions.
I have seen nepotistic promotions made that would make your hair stand on end, with people put into high-level software architecture positions who don’t know the first thing, but prance around the office acting like little Napoleons. It’s almost as if one is no longer even working in America, as workplace culture that had traditionally been open and innovative has turned autocratic and abusive, without any degree of subtlety or buffering. Disgusting!
Very interesting article here – The problem with most Americans is that they simply know nothing about reality. Most of them live in a world where so long as they have a job and an income, they see no reason to act. Meanwhile, the rest of the world comes and eats the fruits of their labor. I’m a young technology guru, I have worked the better part of my life in technology and software development. The result after coming out of college was that my foreign friends all found work in our field. I was forced to find work in a factory where my father was able to help me “get in”. After seven years of searching, I finally found a job in my field. The pay was $35 an hour and I was brought on as a contract employee. While I was there, I saw every tech job go to an H-1B holder. The Americans were all laid off, their positions consolidated into one “High Paid” H-1 position. The fact was the guy they hired was educated at a foreign university (where we have no idea what the regulations are for education) and he was paid at the same level as 1 of the 3 Americans he replaced. The outcome: No one in the company can communicate their problems efficiently(his language skills are good but he cannot communicate/process english like an American), the employee does less than any 1 of the 3 Americans(albeit he looks busy, but he is far less productive), and what’s worse, the management won’t fire him because they fear a discrimination suit. So who is really winning here?
I have alot of connections with the HR at our company. In a recent report they found that H-1B workers were more likely to hit the number 40 for their social security “benefits” from their work while on a visa here in the states.
Meanwhile, none of my colleagues are able to fill this quota. So the notion Cringely mentions is actually true. These H-1B visa holders are bringing wealth out of the US. This wealth serves as a way for them to strengthen their position in the US to bring more people into the country.
Meanwhile, Americans who were raised here; whose families worked their whole lives for the house they live in, are unable to find work. Their parents losing their jobs to these people due to other Americns who took advantage of the system. I’m not looking to get into a 2008 conversation here but this all relates.
The economic crisis may have been created by Lehman, but the coders who built it were on H-1B visas.
But who gets the liability in the world marketplace? The Americans do!
Just some food for thought but I am not the only person who has lived this reality.
If you don’t like H1-b visas, please sign this petition to ban them all together.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/abolish-h1b-visa-program/xJbD9VTc
I wonder why there is only one signature so far, presumably of the guy who wrote it. Couldn’t he even get one other person to sign it?
[...] should not indulge the nativists and those who cloak nativism in technocratic solutions: we don’t need H1-B, guest-worker, or any other funny temporary programs – we have plenty of people who want to [...]
The H-1B system is riddled with corruption. Many of the big companies such as Cisco, Qualcomm, Microsoft, AMD source their people from approved Indian vendors – body shops. These people are on the payroll of the body shop but work onsite at the companies. This allows the companies to state that they have fewer H-1B employees than they really do.
The hiring managers within the companies also tend to be Indian and there is collusion between the body shop and the manager to hire only through the body shops. Most Americans never even have a shot at these jobs.
Until a few years ago it was only IT that was effected by the H-1B import but now it has moved up the value chain to chip design, verification, layout, and hardcore software development.
The body shops supply people to these companies at fixed daily rates with no limit on the number of hours. The companies seem to prefer lower quality, poorly trained H-1Bs rather than higher local talent. The projects take longer but it does not seem to matter to them for some strange reason.
The smaller companies seem to be more willing to hire higher quality local talent and pay more. The managers in the smaller companies are probably under more pressure to produce results.
If this goes on for another 15 years the American tech industry will be decimated and will suffer the same fate as the manufacturing sector. Fewer and fewer higher quality people are entering the field because of the poor job prospects and instability. The second generation immigrants also move away from the field because they are witnesses to their parents experiences.
With India and China developing at a rapid pace the number of high quality people willing to move to the USA is going to decrease. The process has already begun and the engineers coming here today are no longer of the same caliber as the ones that came here in the past. America will be left with a substandard technical work force comprised of Indians and Chinese who cannot find work at home because their home companies will not hire them.
At this time I am ready to do my breakfast, afterward having my breakfast coming yet
again to read additional news.
The NYT had an article that confirms one of your points about skilled workers: there isn’t a skilled worker gap, there is a skilled-worker-at-rock-bottom-wages gap.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/magazine/skills-dont-pay-the-bills.html?pagewanted=all
But that same article concludes “The so-called skills gap is really a gap in education, and that affects all of us.” That changes the meaning to the gap is real since the high school grads don’t have the basic math and science skills to be trainable by the employer.
This is an outstanding article that reveals the truth about the H-1B Visa. Why is it that other journalists are not highlighting the massive abuse and displacement of American workers that this Visa is causing? Microsoft’s lawyers keep talking about a labor shortage in software and those comments make the press, but little in the way of accurate reporting has been done….. until now! Thanks Cringeley for capturing the essence of the H-1B debate so accurately. What we are seeing is indeed a return to the type of labor abuses that prevailed during the Industrial Revolution.
All of these STEM jobs that are lost to foreigners represent the jobs of the future. At some point Americans will wake up and realize that the world has passed them by and that they were done in by a few rich greedy CEOs and their Wall Street backers and this was all allowed to happen because of the apathy of the average American.
Of course all they have to say is they are short on skilled worker even if they aren’t. They simply disqualify candidates by bombing them with questions they had to look up or have demands so steep nobody can fill them. Indian hiring managers aren’t exactly eager to hire their American counterparts preferring to hire family members overseas or here. This leads to violation of Federal discrimination laws. It only creates racial tension. Indians have to prove their superiority in IT to come here and Americans resent it. Bill Gaites is rich and just wants to get richer and that is why most computer science programs dislike Microsoft.
No, they don’t have to prove their skills to come here. One person my manager hired couldn’t even manage to stay awake let alone do any work.
Another issue is that Microsoft has off-shored so many entry level jobs that they can’t get any experienced workers now because they are all in India. They created this problem for themselves and now they want Congress to bail them out just like all the other big corporations. You know they don’t want to pay to train anyone. People should not use Microsoft products and should all switch to Linux. Let Microsoft sell to India.
nother issue is that Microsoft has off-shored so many entry level jobs that they can’t get any experienced workers now because they are all in India. They created this problem for themselves and now they want Congress to bail them out just like all the other big corporations. You know they don’t want to pay to train anyone. People should not use Microsoft products and should all switch to Linux. Let Microsoft sell to India.
Interesting comments , folks .Here is a nuetral view folks . I am an Indian who was on an H1B , but chose to come back to India in 2005 due to family reasons . I had been hired by very large Fortune 10 companies through a stringent selection process and have done consulting in many Fortune 50 companies .
I understand that the employment situation has changed in the US post 2008 , but those days I could clearly see how overpaid the IT folks were in many organizations in the US.
I always believed something was wrong with the system when a one or two years of experienced MD gets paid less than say an ERP or DB specialist .Things might have changed now but when a doctor gets about 150K and an IT specialist gets more than 200K , it is time for a correction .
Also the H1B pays a huge amount to Social Security Fund , but he is not eleigible to get any SS benefits .
There are some true statements in here but some other are not. I am under an H1B (Spain). I studied in the States and I hold a Master Degree (Engineering). I was hired by an IT company for specialized tasks, they did post an ad, 2 people applied, none was even closed to what they needed. The wage is set by the government, and it gets updated every year, meaning that I can’t make less than that. Right now, it’s in $83,000 yearly. While I do agree there are way too many people that shouldn’t even qualify for H1B Visas (lots of Indians with fake degrees from India), the screen process now is very tough, H1B visas requests started going down 4 years ago, one of the reasons is that they closed an company that was bringing thousands of Indians with fake degrees, the other, the economy. Now my point, I think H1B visa program really works and helps (it doesn’t lower the pay of US citizens) lot of companies with highly skilled people, the only problem is others trying to take advantage of the program.
Update 20130129 the U.S. Senate immigration “deal” gives even more U.S. jobs away :
“Immigration plan would increase work visas” in USA Today on-line
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/01/28/immigration-overseas/1871343/
.
This trend is occuring in all sectors in every country.
The bottom line is money.
Frankly Speaking. H1B workers are mostly abused by the Indian mid client or vendor companies, The worker works, but those companies deducts a hefty percentage of their pay and keep it for themselves. The worker most cases get paid only 50% of the actual Bill rate. Rest goes to those hayenas who claim they found the jobs with client relationship. They trap the H1B holder and milk them until they can. Each H1B worker with a job is like an invest for them like milking cow. Milk them as much as you can and as long as they have job, and in H1B. Those Indian companies survive on this H1B worker, even many American companies as well.
“The worker most cases get paid only 50% of the actual Bill rate. ”
Try 25%
One incorrect item here – that the H1B holders do not receive benefits. As they are hired by the companies as FT, just requiring a visa, they are privvy to the same benefits as every other employee – medical, dental, 401k, etc. They pay taxes. They also pay into SS though many of them will never collect on that SS as they end up going back to their home countries after their 3 or 6 year stint.
It is impossible to find smart and educated American citizens.
(cheaply)
I am a foreign-born US citizen who attended and worked my way through college in the US, and I have been living in the states for 30 years. In my observation being in the engineering field for 25 years, H-1B visas and workers are killing present and future STEM jobs in America. The government is sound asleep and has no clue what is really happening at ground zero (at least that is my perception). American citizens are being pushed away from their STEM jobs (not only in IT jobs) and are being replaced by foreign H-1B workers who, in many cases, have inside connections (networks of foreign workers, supervisors and managers). They even have connections spanning many companies who are setting job opening qualifications to match their friends overseas.
If we really have shortage in STEM workers (I am positive we don’t) then I propose that the government makes the sponsoring company pay 1-year of college tuition (average cost in the state where an H-1B worker will be stationed) for every 1-year of H-1B visa issued. This would solve the sponsoring company’s current shortage problem and would encourage and prepare our future generations to fill the future shortage gap (whether a gap is real gap or not).
It makes me sad and disappointed when I hear people like Melissa who claims “it is impossible to find smart and educated American citizens.” We are a hard working nation with many talented people who are burdened with high cost of college education and have other on-going high financial responsibilities (shelter, insurance, water, electricity, etc). For most of the college-educated Americans, the high costs of college leave us no choice but to be productive members of the work force as soon as we receive our bachelor degrees. It would be an added financial burden for our kids to have to go through and pay for 2 to 6 more years of college education to compete with the H-1B’s for basic STEM jobs that, in all practical sense, require no more than a 4-year degree.
Hi,
your corporations and government pushed Government of India through all ways to become a capitalist economy and open its doors for you, for direct investment (FDI), and open the market for direct sales, twenty years ago. And now we are a 100% capitalist country, with free and open trade, and our market is flooded with foreign brands, that includes US brands like McDonalds, Coke, HP, Apple, Ford, GM.. you name any American company, it has sales in India, and production too for a few. Your corporate management still push their Indian workers to sell more in India.. and in return, we just ask for a few thousand cheap IT jobs under H1B, for doing low skilled testing and bug fixing jobs.. If you want to come out of your problems, first of all bring a social change in your society, impart the value of higher education in your young ones and work harder, like 12 hours a day, like we do in India and China and all south-east Asia these days. If you stop all H1B and outsourcing, nothing will happen to the Indian services Industry, since it is no more dependent only on America. So it is your problem only. Thanks for reading. (please excuse my poor English, since it is not my mother tongue).
Hi IndianCrapProgrammer
A couple of points. Trade is one thing. You do not have a right to regard foreign worker employment in the US whether as H1B or any other work visa as being a reasonable quid pro quo for letting Coca Cola sell stuff in India. India sells Mahindra equipment to the US. Do we ask for jobs in India to make up for that? I can imagine how Indian IT workers would react if tens of thousands of cheaper workers from another part of Asia were importe into Bangalore and New Delhi to replace Indians.
btw, do you know that India is running a large TRADE SURPLUS with the US?
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5330.html
As for H1Bs working hard, maybe, but no harder than Americans except when exploited by your own people (another problem with the H1B)
Joe
Refer book “the world is flat”, which analyze the reasons why jobs started outsourcing to India and others countries… in early 1990s globalization started in India and that was the time when most American were saying NO to computer or desk jobs especially related to customer care, back office operations and such… that led companies to go and find best way to provide these services…
thats the bottom line..
crib as much we want, nothing can be done.. like for domestic help, we cannot get rid of mexicans.. i highly doubt for these “skilled IT” job are going to come back to US.
Why don’t we send a heat map to all 100 senators of all the Bachelor of Science holders in the U.S. who are United States Citizens. A map showing there whereabouts by state should be a good eye opener.
Hello everybody,
First point I would like to point is I am an Indian . I was in USA and just returned before 2 months. People may hate me for this, but I hate Indian people more than anybody else, in fact I don’t hate anybody else. If you say that big companies should not hire H-1 visa-holders or get the L-1 holders here and eventually they should not file for their green card. Well, I partly disagree on that part. Big companies should limit the quota of hiring foreign workers in their facility in USA. Everybody has degrees and companies do give training after hiring. They should give training to the US citizens after hiring those people if the company is really thinking no US citizen is able to do their work. They might want to keep the salary low for the training and based on the performance they should make it proper. I am not a management person, but I am just saying. So, that local people with higher degrees can get the start for their careers.
what will happen is that H-1 B holder will get the green card get citizenship, call the whole family by filing a petition and there will be Indians everywhere like rats.
If you work in US and come back to India, companies here do pay you great salary than local people in India do. That salary is more than enough to live lavish life here.
Now if people want to stay there , work their ass off and worst part is they are complaining about paying more taxes and working their ass off , then fault is in Indian people. nobody forced them to stay here. Companies can make the employee stay, but if this style of working and living is employee’s wish, then they should not point finger to anybody who is saying things about h-1.
They accept the lower paying job and work on H-1 . but case like me, I came back and work in India but I do not have that crazy wish like I want to stay in US only.
Now, to bring the people from India , if Big companies are doing H-1 then it is valid at least. but Indian companies [ bluechip companies] which has “solutions” , “inc” in their name , kind of consultancies [these all companies are owned by ex-h1 s who has their green card now] , they are totally fake.
Some inside details which some people might not know here. but Indian knows Indian’s secret.
1.I was on student visa in which i have to find a job in 90 days after my graduation else I must go back. I already had a job, but some of my friends who could not find a job in their fields, they joined these consultancies. Now, this consul. will give an offer letter to show that international student is employed and make the student sign a contract to work for them [ they also file h-1 for the student]. So , if a student is non-IT graduate. They even give them training. and then make their fake resume with several years of experience in IT industry [4-5 page resume which shows expertise in every field].
2. Once the training is over , they market their resumes. All these big companies who wants to fill their IT positions [ not entry level positions] , they put the vacancy online as well as give information to the recruiters[ these recruiters are also consultancies] . They put a vacancy on monster , dice and other websites and then the consultancy person sets up the interview with recruiter [ who is also Indian and he also knows the resume is fake] and recruiter will check the confidence and set up the interview with clients.
3. If the client is in let’s say california then they interview will be on phone or skype. Interesting part is these consultancies hires a person who can give interviews for other people. so your phone interview is given by a genius who can crack the phone interview [ as the resume is fake and student does not know a shit about anything]. if it is skype, student will practice mock interviews in which student sits in front of webcam and a genius stands behind laptop screen, so if client asks any question , genius gives the answer from back of the screen and student is just moving his lips slowly.
4. NOW, READ THIS. after cracking the interview , student starts working and consultancies also provide project support in after work hours. Genius does the work for student and student notice and learns.
5. Clients do not ask for visa proof or anything ,so 8 + years experience is ok for this resume. As the no of years of experience goes high, client pays more to recruiter. recruiters take their part and pay to consultancy and consultancy take their part and pay student. for this much experience hourly salary is around 100 or maybe more. For , student starting salary is 26-28 $[ decided by all the consultancies] remaining 72-74 $, divided between recruiter and consultancy who makes this much for one student per hour and doing nothing.
6. this consultancy also file h-1 so student get to stay here and earn, consultancy makes money and client get their work done.
This thing is common in this blue-chip consultancies owned by ex-h1s who were in IT industry for long time and now they know inside-out. Most of these guys are south-Indian.
and I personally think, if these indian ex h-1 visa holders are doing this right now, after few years I cant even imagine how things in US will be. if you want you can get more idea about this fraud indian[desi] consultancies from google.
IF this thing is going to run, I would want every single fucking Indian out of USA, they are not contributing for development of the country , they are paying taxes no doubt, but they are making the whole system dirty like indian system already is.
I personally think, these people needs to be out of USA and back to India as image of India as a country is already bad , indian people are spreaded everywhere and making other systems bad and dirty.
Thats why I am also in favor with stopping down of H-1 visas , maybe slowing down is the solution as big companies have genuine h-1 holders. It may be good for USA for short term , but in a long term it will be surely bad
The last and crazy experience I want to share with you guys.
One of the consultancy had a vacancy for an accountant [not that demanding and good paying position since it is a small [so-called] company]. Consultancy got the paperwork ready to bring the relative into US as an accountant. They directly filed H-1 and decided the salary around 60 k on paper. Relative came here started working. pay was 60k, so the accountant paid taxes for 60k. but once the salary comes , accountant would give most part of it back to the consultancy owner as a check. That owner also made the accountant file a tax return at the end of an year and took the tax return back from the accountant. Accountant and consultancy did all this so that these guys can come to USA and stay.
Do I need to give any more reasons why this should be slowed down or stopped [or why I hate these cheap indians(mostly south-indians) ]
I am happy that i am not part of this.
Thanks for reading !
Check this. http://www.goolti.com [ goolti is a slang for south indian people] look how students asking about opinions for consultancies.
also, check the last opinion on the link below. That is what they are doing to make money and it is normal for every single consultancies.
http://www.goolti.com/reviewdetail.php?company_id=1311
Only In Jersey City NJ , look how many consultancies are there, owned by indians
http://www.manta.com/mb_53_G2_D0S/computer_software/jersey_city_nj
also , below links
http://www.goolti.com/reviewdetail.php?company_id=833
http://www.goolti.com/reviewdetail.php?company_id=1739
this is one of the consultancy http://www.primesoftinc.com/ I personally know of.
look how they are telling things on website. ” Primesoft inc. is chosen by green cliinical inc. which is also owned by indians.
This Primesoft Inc. has a nice bragging website but the [so called company] is made up of 5 rooms only. 3 Rooms have whiteboards and chairs for teaching purposes. 1 room is for conference . 1 room includes small cabins for marketing persons and owner. These people use alias of non-indian english names.
look for how many [most of them non-it]people they have filed h-1[now working in IT industry]
http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Sponsor/Primesoft/433744.htm
number may be small , but there is a big dirty pool full of these consultancies which adds up in a big number of h-1s every year.
this might be helpful
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×9069088
http://h1bwiki.com/opt-student-deported-chicago-port-of-entry/
Can you please get in touch with me ? use my name followed by indian at any major email. I’m writing a book. Appreciate all your help.
The missing point is Indian IT companies provide so called technical resources (just like escort services) to their clients – US corporations. These Indian owned IT companies bill any where from $140,000 to $190,000 per year for their each employee work, but they pay their employees at level 1 wage entry level around $55,000 to $65,000. So these H1Bs or Indian IT engineers are not cheap in reality. The US corporate employing them know the pain that lack of skills, domain knowledge.
we need to train and educate our american citizens and make it a priority to the highest level!stop making education so unaffordable for bright minds to go to school.
The reason why higher education has become so restricted to domestic students is because of the demand for American University education by foreign born students. Granted the tuition is higher for foreign born students but there seems to be no slow-down of demand because of the high cost. So, American Universities cater to foreign born students to the detriment of those here that would like to attend but cannot afford to go. The ones that take the risk of using student loans find that upon graduation that the entry-level jobs that they once got are now going to those who are brought here using the guest Visas (H1B, etc.) and they are left with a huge debt that they now can’t repay…. The people commenting that Americans are lazy, have no work-ethic, etc. are looking at things from the top – down not from the trenches of the those that have been laid off from jobs, financially restricted from higher education and prevented from entering or re-entering the work force need to look at things differently. You are not helping the American People you are helping corrupt and greedy American corporations and no more than that…..
@ Cringely: One thing in this rather good article is not completely correct. H1B workers no longer have to leave the country when their work permit expires, if a green card petition has been filed and the first part is approved. The worker then can stay while the second part of the application gets decided/approved, his H1B can be extended in one year increments till the green card is issued. This rule was introduced about ten years ago.
first, I am not a US citizen. I came here after a BSc in Biochemistry in my native country to get a Masters In Molecular Biology. I agree that the US government has no obligations to non US citizens. I’ve travelled around the world and seen country governments that are more cruel to foreigners and i believe US tries to be fair without putting its citizens in harms way. But there is one thing I must comment about.
I went to two graduate schools (one in NY and one in AL) while my husband (foreign as well) went to one. Actually, he went to a historically black university. I was astounded to find in my biology class that we were 70-80% foreign. My husband’s engineering class was more like 90% foreign. My american friend is the only american in his MSc Math class.
I agree that this is a very small sample size (three graduate schools) but I think it made sense that when I step into a pharmaceutical company, I see the same foreign to US percentages as I did in the schools that trained us. I’m currently in an MBA program where we’re about 40% foreign. I see that percentage in industry. The medical school in my university was more like 20% foreign. I also see that distribution in hospitals. Are there some professions that Americans are more drawn to and some you shy away from?
Both my husband and I got a scholarship for our MSc. Our schools were desperately looking for US students. My husbands HBCU in particular refused to give him admission in the hope that they would get US talent instead. He was admitted a year later because they had excess funds from the previous year. And his school graduates the most black, US born students in the country. However, his class was full of Indians and Bangladeshi. He did not deprive US citizens of the ability to go to college. His university gave a free ride to anyone US born who had a GPA of 3.75, a 75% scholarship to 3.5 GPA and some assistance to students with a 3. Only when they had excess, did they admit foreign students.
I agree with the comment that a lot of H1bs get jobs based on connections from their native country. However, may I argue that so do Americans? When I was in college, the career service guys always told us that we had to network to get jobs. They said only 25% of folks get jobs by just applying. 50% of jobs landed were by networking and knowing people.
I respectfully apologize for any ire generated from comments from Goni and my other international brethren. Please understand, it is hard being away from home. We honestly try to work hard here and mean no disrespect. This is your country and indeed, your ancestors worked hard and bled hard to make it great. We came here (or at I did) because I read that, except for the Native Americans, all Americans are foreigners and came here to make something of themselves. The British to escape religious persecution, the Irish to escape the terrible blight and famine, several Hebrew and Eastern Europeans to escape the Nazi. I believe this is partially why the US government continues to try to be fair to foreigners. I believe they believe that America was built on the sweat and dedication of Polish, British, German, Irish and several other immigrants who came here, became successful and were then able to hire others and let them be successful as well. I believe America’s diversity is its strength. I find it fascinating learning from friends what their history is and why their ancestors came here. I believe I am being respectful of this nation by abiding by its laws and staying within its government limits.
Finally, I believe there is opportunity for everyone. Agreed, it may not be equal but when has hard and discouraging times ever stopped the great men whose statues are in the big cities? 50 years ago, america didn’t have the number of millionaires it has today. the wealth of this country grew. this year, more wealth was added to america than taken away from its citizens. Creative people make creative products that create wealth. I am certain of this because I have seen it happen in my native country. For 15 years, our people squalored under a cruel dictatorship. As if in an act of God, the dictator suddenly died and wealth grew, almost overnight (well, more like over 5 years). It was like coming out of a great darkness. There was enough for everyone, both the native and the foreign born. My country is still far from through with its problems, it’s still one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and others created a $100 billion industry almost out of thin air. They created the wealth. It wasn’t taken from anywhere. When there is a lack of food, the true and lasting solution is not to ration food supply. the solution is to grow more food. One head of corn can give rise to 800 plants if all the kernels are planted. One man’s creative spark can feed thousands. Goodwill (the company) taught me that. There is plenty in America, all it needs is to be farmed.
I pray I did not upset or offend anyone. It is not my intention. I tried to be very respectful in my post. Thank you all for your comments. It was very educative. Peace be with you all. I wish success on us all. Amen.
Was wondering how I missed out on some posts. But I guess they were moderated together with my post.
lady, I totally agree with you. That is some nice stuff you have contributed if at all anybody makes use of it
I totally agree with SJ P
but I will not reveal it as well since, I do not want further arguments/issues over details
There is a lot of content on this page I went through. i work for one of the greatest companies, I don’t tell this because I work here
I myself am an Indian and in specific, a South- Indian. Although I never took any wrong path. My story and intent is somewhat similar to SJ P’s, more in the initial stages.
Although I am from Bangalore where I can have all the great jobs I want sitting at home,and Although I am not from the exact location of these gooltis we all know of in Southern India, I hate to be part of India when it comes to this matter. Even people doing the right thing and working hard are labeled being part of this idiotic, leeching, ridiculous, utterly frustrating system only because of these bastards making use of literally each and every loophole around.
I do not care what pushed them into doing that. It could be bad situations they were into, again due to some other dependent bad system or just plain greed. Could be anything, but they are doing a lot and I mean a lotttt of wrong only raising the requirements for more stringent laws.
Now don’t get me wrong. I do have a lot of goolti friends who actually do the right things and have amazing knowledge I’ve got inspirations from. I am not of a person who generalizes or is racist either. But I also do have goolti friends who have literally asked me as well to clear phone interviews for them!!….seriously?!..how could someone digest a question like that posed to them?!. They were great friends only until that moment when I got to know what they were all about. I was always proud of scoring high in some of the toughest exams I have taken in life and this goolti guy spoilt all my sense of pride in just one minute by asking me if I was actually the person who gave those exams.!! It is just this cult/group of people with connections who have ruined everything. The ones working hard and trying their best to do things the right way do not get recognitions due to the bastards.
Again, I do not care typing “bastards” on a forum like this because that is seriously like 0.0000000001% of what they deserve.
Well solution is just this!, …share videos of inspirations! towards higher education, improving even lower levels of education system. Discourage to the “core” those idiotic kids smoking weed all day playing Guitars like any other kid out there and dropping out of college only struggling to even find jobs at In n Out and Carls Junior or Bob Evans for that matter the day they realize their parents are broke and can no longer support their kids and show them a sense of hope that skilled jobs are also attainable/in reach!.
By reassuring required courses/classes are easy if only they try…and telling them failure is ok and is actually stepping stone for success by making education cheaper and letting people enroll to classes as many times as they like. And again!, just make it cheaper!, not free as we do not want to have people taking classes lightly and staying in classes all their lives and eating off the Govts funds.
I see these efforts already greatly in motion thanks to Obama. you know videos like these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVn1TqUfZjc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YobeIhmpIa4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKIu9yen5nc
Just added some of them. There are a lot out there which should start appearing on TVs instead of those stupid idiotic Burger ads during climax scenes of movies/serials knocking some sense onto teens which is actually the duty/job of the elders.
Its a “bit” slow of a change, but the country can get there. How slow?!—->depends totally on YOU–>each one of us
I myself have shared inspiring videos to my American friends. On a lighter note: I also have my “good” Indian and French friends who have created jobs for the American people along with some training as mentioned by SJ P .I also personally know two guys from Iran and Aus, plenty from gooltis, a few from North India who are just as bad as any other consultancies out there
What I observed though was there were “plenty” of both Indian entrepreneurs doing good as well as bad. Now, I come to think of it, its majorly because, may be we just have a lot of population! .So we naturally have more people of every Caliber, good or bad
Just that the bad ones get noticed super bad/immediately, thinking of all the great innovators in Silicon Valley
Now, with the population!, lets not go into details, but here is what I feel!,
We all know the history!. Thousands and thousands of years have gone by and India has always been a land of trade. We know how many millions of times it has been invaded, how many fought over bits and pieces, how many settled down there. How many had kids!…and how many kids!….well lets not go over it. At this moment though, I see all my friends and their families. I rarely see any of the families with more than 2 kids. A lot of families have just one kid
And the refugees?!?..from Bangladesh, form Pakistan, from Sri Lanka, from all over the world!, they were always welcome with their families! if they did not find the place they lived safe. Democracy is great, but with a tiny pinch of corruption that leeches over time!, everything is ruined.
Now!…with respect to America, I see a lot of pregnant teens working at food chains. I see Mexicans having soooo many kids!…I see American kids wasting away precious times of their lives doing crap. Never bothering about innovations/future/leaving all hard work to foreigners and going with the crappy slogan of live life at the moment. What after the moment?!!…
I see India has more stringent laws over pollution than the US. Harley had to cut down in pollution before being let in to the Indian market. Everyone here drives Automatic transmission and Car Pool isn’t used as much. Public transportation isn’t as good to the point where it can be encouraged.
I see USA in somewhat the same situation India was thousands of years ago. So, do you want the same problems as India is facing right now here as well?!..
ALL of YOU should decide and act accordingly
If you really went through all of this, you definitely have the patience to bring about some change. Thanks for reading
So basically we started with the H1B discussion, then the politics involved and then we came down to correcting people’s grammer (for some thats the only contribution they have made to the ‘discussion’). last but not the least we called Indians slumdogs and asked them to leave.
We just need reason to taget and blame the immigrants asking them to go back but not appreciate the fact that they have studied hard in their schools and graduation programs (where the English is not the medium of instruction) to come onshore and work equally hard to adapt to a foreign country while majority (not all) american kids are busy tracking Miley Cyrus’s affair or have only one goal in the mind – get out of the school & work at the McDonalds!
If you really think cheap labour cost is the only criteria, you are wrong! It also is the availability of local ‘talent’! No one seem to be paying attention to that before calling someone a slumdog. When you say you deal with substandard and not to bright indian folks in your offices, you still might not be looking at equally or more so idiot fellow americans because being a native, its okay for them to be dumb, is that what you intend to mean?!
PS: Go ahead and point out my grammer mistakes but dont expect me to use an ‘American’ to rectify them. half of your kids out of grad schools dont know how to spell without running a spell check and thats really dumb since this is your official language!
Another PS: That one idiot that somehow managed to drag QA inbetween, You seem to a frustrated developer that cant fix a thing in your code! If you dont know what QA is, keep you mouth shut and try to find another example if you may.
I am presently working as a part-time foreign language instructor in a public US university and I am on an H-1B visa. The job is considered part-time (37 hours/week with 16 hours of frontal teaching) which means I can not go for a PR.
I applied to several positions and I got one offer from another US public university.
I accepted the offer and then I was told that the DOL prevailing wage came back higher (Level II) than the offer and therefore the offer was no longer valid.
I understand that universities have to comply but how come that DOL prevailing wage is substantially higher than the amount US public universities are actually paying to their instructors? DOL prevailing wage is 28% higher than the offer which corresponds to the amount everyone in that university is paid in that professional category.
By the way: I am a native speaker of the language I teach, I have qualifications (obtained in the US and outside the US) to teach foreign languages at post secondary level, and I have been teaching foreign languages for more than 15 years. The 6 years of my H-1B visa will run out in a few years and then I will have to leave the US.
And thanks for working for a US public university.
I am not asking what America can do for me, I am just saying what I have been doing for America.
The H1-B program was started in 1990. If we had actually implemented a solution to the “problem”, citizens born in 1990 would be graduating with their technical Masters degrees right now.
If you would rather be on foodstamps and welfare than work for $40.00 per hr, then you are nuts! This is why we have home grown terrorists now. The number of Saudi nationals in our colleges has gone up over 500% since 2011, why?
Does everyone here think that because nothing has happened in your backyards that itr can’t happen to you? Wake up, we are allowing the enemy in in droves. There are plenty of people here qualified for any job, if not, train them!
Not sure, if author or someone who commented really understand the requirement of H-1B. I struggled so much to get in one of the US citizen for job in Hawaii. It is basic business analyst job, which requires just 5 years experience. I told I can pay $65 per hr..
I had to scratch my head so many times for the kind of complains on the job location, like moving to different place that he was giving in spite of being jobless for more than 26 weeks, unable to get unemployment insurance, and could not pay rent, so on. Weirdly he asked for some time to take the Job. And shockingly he came back with decision that he cannot afford to move Hawaii for the job. Well I made so much search, the demands are so high from US citizens, I eventually ended up hiring H-1B individual. H-1B employee is so flexible, that client is happy with him too.
See it is not skills that are making difference here ..it is individuals flexibility that matters. And all who are flexible never will be unemployed. Lots of job out there, and most of these jobs are going to H-1B employees just because there is no citizen available to pick up the job.
I think your story is just that Satish…
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[...] job, and then are required to pay them on par with U.S.-born professionals. Thanks to an array of legal loopholes in the way appropriate wages are calculated, though, it doesn’t necessarily work out that [...]
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[...] and then are required to pay them on par with U.S.-born professionals. Thanks to an array of legal loopholes in the way appropriate wages are calculated, though, it doesn’t necessarily work out [...]
[...] job, and then are required to pay them on par with U.S.-born professionals. Thanks to an array of legal loopholes in the way appropriate wages are calculated, though, it doesn’t necessarily work out that [...]
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